Author Topic: oil burners  (Read 604 times)

ajaffa1

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Re: oil burners
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2018, 08:09:17 AM »
Hey Glort, I think you and I are thinking along the same lines. Having a generator that burns WVO looks like the way forward. Utilizing the waste heat from said generator to provide hot water and heating/cooling to your home looks like a win win to me. I was wondering about building a system with a power shaft with pulleys for generator head, compressor, air conditioning, water pump, hydraulic pump and etc. I was wondering if anyone had ever tried using car wheels/tires as a means of transferring power from a flywheel on a drive shaft to a flywheel on a generator. pump and etc? I am thinking of a tire mounted on a lever with a spring to provide the required contact pressure. Might work well as a means to couple my CS to the drive shaft, might also help with the flicker a lot of people experience with single cylinder diesel generation. A tire could also be partially filled with water to provide extra flywheel mass.

Bob

ajaffa1

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Re: oil burners
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2018, 08:41:05 AM »
Further to my last post I could build a system that would generate DC electricity to power my grid tied inverter. This would provide me with the electricity my home needs during the evening and also export any surplus to the grid. As far as I know grid tied solar systems aren`t limited to the hours of daylight. So I could end up with them having to pay me rather than the other way around. :laugh:

Bob

glort

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Re: oil burners
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2018, 10:51:47 AM »

Your ist idea with a line shaft to drive multiple loads sounds very doable.

Just get a length off shaft, Suitable size pulleys for each load and some Pillow block bearings and tensioners. Either that or hinge each load so it pulls  in the shaft with it's own weight.  You'd want a Pillow block bearing at each and and I 'd Put a couple in the Middle to stop flexing and whipping.

What's the Hydraulic Pump for? Something in the shed?

Not sure about the tyre Idea.
It would be easy to use something like a Subaru Driveshaft and a hub. They have a CV joint at each end and will allow quite a lot of Movement. That said you may have to take one CV off or weld it up so it exerts the force and does not bend. The weight of the hub may be beneficial and you could attach your spring there as well.
 Can't say I'm sold on the friction drive Idea though.  I'd be using something like a serpentine or maybe a V belt over the tyre and driving to a conventional Pulley.

You Could NOT  put water in the wheel unless you are going to turn it slower than even CS engine speed.  You never get all the air out and the thing will vibrate like hell. They tried that in motorsport in the 40-'50's. Tractors have water in the tyres but their wheel speed is a lot less than 600Rpm.
I was going to do the same to my ride on till I remembered it has Tubless Tyres.


To do worthwhile DC you would probably have to use an AC motor/ generator and rectify it. I can't think on anything that would do a DC output, IE, a true Generator with decent capacity and voltage.  Treadmill motors will do it but you would be lucky to get 750W out of one.
The way I am thinking and have played with is using an AC induction motor.  You add some caps, 1 across one pair of legs, 2 caps or one of double the value across another pair and the 3rd pair are open.  This will take the 3 Phase back to single phase. It's called C2C.
You then rectify that power. I can't remember now, I think I made up a 3 phase rectifier out of 3 single rectifiers and had that attached to the caps and took the rectified single phase off that to the GTI.

Unfortunately GTI's are not an ideal thing to work with unless you are pumping pretty much their full capacity.
Because they are Power point tracking, they impose a varying load which is the last thing you want with an induction motor setup.  On panels they are searching for the sweet spot between Voltage and ampreage and are never really Still in the load they apply.  The problem when on a genny is they will load the motor/ generator down and the engine will slow a little ( unless it's quite over powered for the gen head) the MPPT says oh, power has dropped, i'll back off a bit. It does revs and power come back up and inverter says I think I can get more here and loads the gen head up again and so it goes.
the way to get round this is Drive a 3 KW head with a 10 KW motor or be producing more power than the inverter can use so it goes to it's max power point and is pegged and stays there. It will still hunt a small amount but not enough to worry.

I'd suggest if you are going to C2C an induction motor you want something about 10 Kw.  They have a lot of fall off used this way. My little 5 KW Motor is flat out generating 2.5 KW but I have to have it up around the 400V+ mark to do that.
2 problems with that....

First, when you rectify AC, you get 30%?? ( again can't remember) voltage increase.  May be more but it IS an INcrease.  You want to try and keep your voltage under 500V for most inverters to be happy and have margin.
Second problem is caps that are 600V or higher rated are 1, hard to get, 2, expensive when you do find them.  You are better off to run caps under voltage as well.  Don't want little hand grenades going off.

By using an over size motor, you can get the power output you want, surmising 3 KW here, without going too high on the voltage. Once you get over synchronous by 10%, the motor will generate, faster you drive it over that the more power you make BUT, at higher Voltages.
Of course if you can find a 240V generator, they you simply rectify the output and come up in a happy place with 320-350V, feed that to the GTI and everyone is a happy camper.

I would NOT use your solar GTI, it's real easy to over shoot when setting these things up and you'll fry it's arse. If you have a smart arse meter for the solar and not the old net metering, you can simply plug the genny setup into an outlet in your shed. A normal outlet will in fact take 3600W because they are the same only the earth pin is different and your power circuit has to be wired for 3600W minimum. If you have 4MM instead of 2,5MM cable you are laughing but if you are 50M from the fuse box, you may have problems with resistance sending the voltage to the GTI High.
Hard to run extension leads because unless you make one yourself out of 2.5mm cable ( Not that I would EVER do any of this and incur the wrath of the boring , whining safety sissy stamp collectors whining about " Codes" and regulations) all the leads you can buy are 1 or 1.5MM at best.
Just came back from bunnings not an hour ago looking at them.  Cheaper to buy a roll of 2.5mm TPS for $90 and a couple of ends and make your own lead up.  Plug that into an outlet as close as possible to the fuse box or have a HD circuit put in.

If you want to co-gen, probably not going to be far from the house anyway so resistance won't be an issue if you have 2.5 as you should.

The only thing I can see is if you export too much power. The thing of them paying you is not as easy as I would like....err, I mean,,, you think!
De[pending on your meter it may log Generation time. that said, it can't log what you self consume so If you are pulling 4KW at night and only generating 3, it will show you as using 1 KW. Of course if you are generating 3 and using 2, it will go the other way.
A controller that does not allow export or only feeds what you are using is something I am very interested in finding.  They do exist but many now actually work with a specific GTI and throttle the inverter itself rather than limit the power as a stand alone. Those seem hard to find.

A dump load controller would be ideal. Whatever you are not using simply goes to a resistance heater.  Could be your hot water heater or a space heater like a bar radiator. Wouldn't care if it got 2000W or 200w, you would just get the appropriate amount of heat.

They may also look at your generation and say, "old the phone guv, you only gots a 5 Kw system ther according to our records 'ere and every other punter round the area only made 500Kwh for the month with the same size system. E're you are wiv a whopping 900 kwh up yer sleve. What give's then ol mate?  "Ow is it  then that there system of yours is so much better than wat every other cove round the manor made then?"

Of course that are likley not to say shit because unlike the carry on most of the pedantic fear mongers go on with, they are not that on the ball.
Again, would also depend on your metering setup. If you are still on the old gross metering this could work to your favour really well.

Oh yes, I know the bloke at works grandmothers dog groomers brother in law's neighbour had someone come around 3 years ago and checked his meters out BUT, that story has been related and blown out of proportion 8,000 times and if you chances of winning lotto were as good, you'd still be poor.
In any case, it's not illegal, just not in the spirit of the agreement you have with them. All they can do is ask you to stop doing it.

I have been looking for something that I could use for zero export at a reasonable price but so far drawn a blank.  All I want is something that may use a couple of CT clamps and when the generation gets near export, it PWM's the generation so say 100W of power is being drawn at all times.

mikenash

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Re: oil burners
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2018, 05:54:51 PM »
Couple of thoughts fwiw:

That tyre drive is widely used in the timber industry; but only at low low speeds - you might have balance issues at higher speeds?  Where we have used tyres to drive timber roundtables I have fitted forklift tyres for their small size and rigidity

Shaft and bearings?  Unless you get it exactly exactly right, more than two bearings on a shaft can be asking for trouble with mis-alignment and premature bearing failure.  imho a heavy shaft and just a couple of bearings might serve you better?

just my $0.02.  Cheers

ajaffa1

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Re: oil burners
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2018, 10:18:23 PM »
Yep, I think the line shaft is a go. Used a lot of them when I worked as a maintenance fitter in a sawmill. Mike is absolutely right about having more than two bearings for two reasons first the alignment has to be spot on or you will either break the shaft or get through a lot of bearings. The second reason is that where I worked we had six meter long shafts with multiple bearings and pulleys, every time a belt broke we had to undo all the bearings to fit a new one. We took to fitting ten belts to each pulley at a time, one fitted to the pulley with nine cable tied to the frame to use as spares.

This problem was my reason for suggesting tires. The RPM of the tire is determined by the diameter of the pulley on the line shaft so for example with the shaft doing 600 rpm and a 200 mm pulley, a regular car tire would be doing less than 200 rpm.
The smaller the pulley and the larger the tire the lower the rpm.

Hydraulic pump is on my wish list to drive a press and broaching tool for cutting keyways in pulleys. It will also be connected to a log splitter, too old for that sort of sh1t now.

Probably go with your 240 volt AC suggestion and then rectify it. Been searching for a suitable head for ages. I did discover that Gasweld sell a range of generator heads in Australia, sadly no pictures just descriptions and prices.

I believe I should build the set up near to the house, this would enable harvesting of heat for hot water and etc. Not sure how to overcome the noise to keep the wife happy.

Bob

mikenash

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Re: oil burners
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2018, 11:00:15 PM »
 +1 there Bob

I remember very well the clusters of belts all cable-tied together along the shafts, and the old pillow blocks that had craked their housings and were now held down with a bit of flat bent into an arc over the top of whatever remained of the cast block & bolted down

One thing we did that I really like, though, was we standardised the outputs of most of our reduction drives to things like conveyors and just put an A40 bet on a couple of pulleys as a fuseable link.  Often the smell of fried belt - or the puff of smoke - would alert you that some monkey had jammed a belt even before anyone had noticed the timber had stopped flowing - we got extra good at changing them in seconds.  A $4 belt was much better than a $2400 drive as a sacrifice to the Gods of Stupidity

BruceM

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Re: oil burners
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2018, 11:16:51 PM »
Regarding sound, that has been a big issue to me because of brain damage and hyperaccusis, and it is what made me choose the Listeroid from my off grid prime mover.  I now think exhaust noise is a snap to eliminate via a "leachfield" type earth muffler that we used on my neighbor's setup.  The other noise (intake and mechanical) is much less but tougher- you need sound absorbing baffles for the engine room air.  At say 5KW and up, the use of a sound baffled squirrel cage blower (and sound baffled inlet) might be a good way to go. Avoiding a thumper would help with the subsonics.

Distance for hot water runs is expensive in foam board and spray foam; my home and shop are separated by 50 feet and that cost me a total $1500 in foam and labor to do.  After that one time expense, there is very little energy cost for moving modest volumes of water around; I originally did just fine with a 10 watt pump for the in-floor heat. (Now I use a 20 watt pump since it's no longer a closed loop.)  I made a 4" thick EPS foam box in the ditch, laid in the pipes, and then filled it with spray isocyanurate foam a bit over 6" on top.   I was serious about not loosing energy to the earth in winter and my house needs little so a smaller BTU loss would have been a significant percentage.

A generator close to the house both saves and costs in comfort and noise/vibration control.  The leach field muffler also helps with the problem of exhaust near the house- you can direct it away in the least likely wind direction; very little odor is present in the cool air leaving the leach field via perforated leach field pipe and stack.




glort

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Re: oil burners
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2018, 12:56:10 AM »
Quote
I did discover that Gasweld sell a range of generator heads in Australia, sadly no pictures just descriptions and prices.

You got a Link?
I tried finding them on their site and couldn't. There is a gas weld 10 Min down the road from me. Be interested to go down and have a look.  I'm thinking they are likely to be single bearing types though.

ajaffa1

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Re: oil burners
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2018, 08:22:34 AM »
Hey Glort, take a look at this; https://www.gasweld.com.au/catalogsearch/result/?cat=0&q=alternator

Several on offer, sadly no pictures. I suspect those labelled as "taper" will be a single bearing. there are a couple that are not "taper" including one three phase. If its just down the road go take a look and report what you find, PLEASE.
Bob

glort

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Re: oil burners
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2018, 01:22:19 PM »

Is it just my ( usually fine) connection or does that site really suck?
Can't even get the store locator to wok properly.  NO, I can tell you for a fact that store is at LEAST 300Km away and not my closest store at all. There are in fact about 17 Closer!

Seems they are not where I thought but not far away at all anyway.
Hard to tell WTF they have from their crappy site but I agree, the tapered alt assembly's appear to be replacement Bolt on units. Also the fact they are 2 Pole tends to indicate they are engine speed ( 3000RPM ) units rather than belt drive.

I'll try to remember to ring them in the morning or on Monday and see if they Know wtf they are selling and if not, if they have any in stock I can see if I do bother to go down there.  Not much point going anywhere if they are just going to show me the web site as so many places do now as their point of reference.

I just spend an hour searching on the net and I can't find ANY reasonable priced 2 bearing heads here.  They are all over $1000 for a 3.5 kw and above. Cannot be that freaking expensive to make when you can but a whole generator with a Honda motor for that.

Maybe I really ought to put some proper time into looking at importing some.  Must be a worthwhile amount of people here that would like to get a reasonable 4 pole 2 bearing unit at an affordable price.

That 24V alt I saw is looking better and better. Double conversion from 24 to 240, rectified and fed into the GTI wouldn't be great but when the real goal is heat anyway.... may not be too bad on the efficiency scale.
 

ajaffa1

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Re: oil burners
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2018, 10:02:36 PM »
Oz Listeroids used to sell them at a very reasonable price, I wonder where he imported them from. While the website is still up I believe he has retired and is no longer trading. I emailed him, a while ago, looking for spares but got no reply. Might pay him a visit next time I go to Coffs harbour.

Bob

ajaffa1

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Re: oil burners
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2018, 08:34:38 AM »
Hey BruceM, I`ve been giving a lot of thought to the issue of noise, where I live there isn`t any unless you count birdsong. Occasionally I get rudely awakened by my rooster or one of my few neighbours decides to mow the grass or cut some firewood with a chainsaw.

I have two 25,000 litre concrete water tanks behind my house and I am thinking to build my engine shed behind those in the hope that they will absorb/deflect a lot of the noise, while keeping the length of pipework and cable to a minimum.

I would dearly like to use the heat, from running my CS, to heat hot water for showering and etc. When I lived in the UK, domestic hot water systems came with a built in copper coil which was connected to your gas/oil fired boiler. An electric immersion heater element was also included for summer/emergency use. Here in Australia most systems are electric only, there are some that have a built in coil for evacuated tube solar heating but I doubt that would be adequate. I am also not convinced that a thermo syphon system would work given the distance to the house.

I have thought about a pumped coolant system but that just adds to the cost, complexity and is an open invitation to the f*ck up fairy, perhaps I should move the hot water storage into the generator shed and use the existing water pump to transfer hot water to the house. An extra 10 metres of pipe work, so the hot tap takes longer to run hot. I could run it on an insulated loop with a bronze pump, this is the system used in high end hotels which guarantees instant hot water at every bath, shower or tap.

Got to go, supper pending.

Bob

glort

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Re: oil burners
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2018, 09:25:22 AM »

Some thoughts Bob.....

I don't think a Cs would be real hard to make quiet.  Probably a garden shed that was insulated with bats held buy Chicken wire lined on the inside would of a lot of sound deadening.  Intake makes a lot of noise so a 4WD type AC with teh big element would probably do a lot for that.
Exhaust should be easy particularly if you run a HE on the end of that.  I have found using car mufflers on stationary engines works well.  Did one and reduced the outlet size a fair bit so the thing basically bled down between firings.  May not be great for performance but with enough pipe and muffler capacity, shouldn't be a problem.  Bruce could advise on the ground muffler as well.

For coolant heat exchange, one of those small FPHE exchangers would be all you need. they are extremely efficient and a 30 Plate would be more than you need well and truly to extract 100% of available coolant heat. They are stainless and used in brewing etc so are potable water safe.
There are specific Hot water circulation pumps for solar and other applications which are magnetic drive and use next to no power. I would strongly suggest putting one of these in your system.

Depending what you need, a split system might be worth looking at too.  If practical, you could say connect a Shower to the CHP system so  when you did bleed off the cold water, at least you used some worthwhile amount of hot water.  If you showered then the Mrs or showered together to save even more water, then the system would be more viable.

As far as circulating the water in the system, that would be an efficiency Nightmare.  Unless you went to a LOT of trouble and expense like Bruce did to super insulate the feed line, which you couldn't do once it got to the house anyway, you'd loose a lot of heat and I imagine the pump consumption over a 24 Hr period would add up as well.
Perhaps a preheat tank going to your main tank would be better?  Yes, it would get a shot of cold water when you turn it on, same as it does now but for showering etc  it would feed the main tank heated water which would cut down on your heating.

Are you looking to heat your house at all from the Co-gen system? If so then you could use the coolant heat for space heating in your house and put the electricity back into the system or divert it to your regular hot water then to further heat the coolant water... Or split the load.
If you have a regular Single element electric water heater you could replace the thermostat with one from a twin element heater. They interchange.
The beauty with these is  they divert the power. Once the thermo detects it's up to heat, it diverts the load to what it thinks is the other element.
If you wanted to run this back to your normal power, You could rectify it and run it back to your solar GTI or get another GTI, Rectify and feed it to that so it will grid sync and push back from there.

I think you need to think backwards on this.  First of all what sort of a meter do you have and how will it treat extra power and where do you need/ can feed it?  What is the heat and power going to be used for? Heating in winter both on coolant and electrically or.... ?

the trouble with DIY power as I see it is so much of the time you just want a little power... but all the time.  The hours you want say 3-5KW are limited.
That's what makes it hard.

Been surfing looking for watercooled Diesels. Not a cheap or easy thing to come by here.
Maybe we should look at bringing in some of the China horizontal water cooled gen sets and be done with it? Certainly simplify a lot of things!


ajaffa1

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Re: oil burners
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2018, 11:32:17 AM »
Hey Glort, yes I think you are right: identify the outcome required and then work backwards from there. I do not require the CoGen to heat the home, we have a wood burning stove and enough dry logs to heat a village.

I think what I require is a totally reliable system that gets me off the grid. I have a very successful solar set up that has taken my electric bill down to $300 to $350 per quarter. I also have the advantage that there are no charges for water of sewerage, the annual council levy on my property comes in at just over $800 per year. So, like yourself, I am a bit of a tight arse. I don`t like having to pay people or organisations to do what I can do for myself.

I have been building a shade house for my wife's bromeliad collection with the intention of turning her hobby into a viable business. Rare/new variety broms can cost hundreds of dollars!

There is a 20 meter deep valley behind my property which narrows at the bottom end I would like to turn this into a many mega litre dam to allow us to irrigate, produce our own food all year round and be independent of the supermarkets. catchment for that dam would be around 5 acres, when it rains here there is a river running down that valley.

I think the problem I have is that I have too many projects and only one pair of hands, compounded by my health issues.

So in summary what I am looking to build is something so simple and reliable that my wife can operate/maintain it when I am gone. We export energy to the grid during daylight hours so we only need a system that will pick up the slack during the evening, until we go to bed. The biggest loads are electric oven and electric water heating and AC on very hot days. A CS 6/1 run on WVO should be able to do this easily provided we don`t try to run all three at the same time. When we are generating solar power the primary use is heating hot water, anything after that goes to the house/workshop, whatever we don`t use gets exported.

My CS is ready to reassemble, I have about 80% of the bits to do it. I`m just not quite certain of the best set up to get the best bang for my limited bucks and life expectancy. I`ll give you an idea of the issues I am considering: an air conditioner converted to be belt driven off the primary mover is going to be much more efficient than one run off electricity generated by the PM. The same applies to pumps, compressors and etc. It`s much easier to do everything electrically but the losses are significant and as I said earlier I`m a tight arse.

Bob




glort

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Re: oil burners
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2018, 12:42:53 PM »

A rather unsettling post there Bob!
I sincerely hope you are not planning on going anywhere for some considerable time.

Taking what you said at face Value, I see a few problems. If your priority is for your mrs to be able to operate something on her own, Then electric is going to be far easier for her to manage than a line shaft.  If you are going to run it all on WVO, Who Gives a Damn about efficiency when you are running free fuel?

How much are you going to loose generating instead of direct Drive? You burn 120L instead of 100?  You burn 150L instead of 100L  Who gives a fk?
You'll never know the difference anyhow. 
Look at it this way, if you process and batch in 200L lots as I do, there are 2000Kwh worth of energy in every drum of oil.  That's a lot even allowing for inefficiency.
I don't know if you have already collected oil,  If you have not get your arse out there and start NOW because having a reserve before you begin is the best thing you can do. Where you are should be easy. Larger town, too far for collectors to be really interested, country people willing to help out.
Should be a walk in the park and if you want some tips on collecting, let me know.

If you can get what i'm guessing you could, even a Drum a month should be way more than you need. In practicality you will find there is oil everywhere in summer because people eat out a lot more, and bugger all in winter.  Make hay while the sun shines my Friend. You'll also see a portion of your oil become useless in winter when it sets to fay and you may only have half the amount still as liquid oil.
Forget about 44's and go straight to IBC's. Yes, I know, seems over, kill.... till you get to here this time next year and can't find a drop of oil. I have been doing this 15 years. If there is one thing I know about, it's the oil business!  :0) You can NEVER have too much especially when you have the space for it anyway.

Now, another fly in the ointment...... If you can't collect oil, can the Mrs? Is she going to be remotely interested in collecting it? Is you both still going to be there if you cannot maintain the rest of the joint anyway? My guess is you will want to sell up and go where you can do what is needed even if that is nothing at all.

I'm thinking that maybe perhaps your planning might need to be a lot more than running a Lister and making power?


The other thing is, all the trouble and time and effort you are looking at, is it worth $1200-1500 a year?  Might you be better spending time with the mrs relaxing and enjoying yourself instead of doing all this?  If it's your therapy, Fine but just trying to be the killjoy that brings things back to reality and makes you think about things. It's real easy to get caught up in all these plans and loose sight of bigger pictures. Ask me how I know.
It's also a LOT easier for someone outside looking in to say hey! rather than sometimes work out the blinding obvious for yourself.  Don't ask me how I know about that, I'd be embarrassed to say how many times I have and still do make that mistake and need a grounding.

If I have it wrong, that's fine, just say so but I want to make sure you are thinking things through and getting your priorities right my friend.

Something else I can tell you to a certainty.... If you are intending to go off grid for purely economic reasons, you are making a big mistake.
You CANNOT make power cheaper ( even with free Fuel) than you can buy it from the grid.  End of story.
If you are going to stay connected to the grid, different thing but OFF grid, nup, you will spend more over time on equipment and repairs than you will staying on it.

If you are doing it for independence or whatever, again different but same thing still applies, financially, especially at $1200 per year, you are best off right where you are.
If you want to lower your power bill more and have something easy for the mrs to look after, go more panels.  Maintenance free virtually.

To give you power at night, simply get more panels if need be, a forklift battery pack, charger and inverter.
No, not as cheap as the 'roid but again, priorities.  Is setup cost more important or the fact the Mrs or yourself going out in the effing cold to start or shut down a genny? Yeah, you can do it remotely but then comes the cost, time and skill factors.

Another thing... where is your limited time best spend? Fking round trying to save $1200 Pa on a gen setup that you don't need the heat from anyway OR, building that dam that will make you more money,  $2K a year wouldn't be hard to do surely with the plants, and save some on the food?
I'd be thinking the smart move would be Do the dam, get the Mrs up and running and THEN look at going off grid. If things work out right, You'll say bugger that and be just happy to pay the power and be done with it.
 
I am a tightarse but there is being thrifty and there costing yourself more than it's worth. I get the feeling that there are other things worth more to you than money.... same as me. 

I don't know your mind set and the 100 influential details of your setup, the things you and the mrs like and want and all those other factors you can't put down here. I can only go on what I'm reading but I have to say mate, I think the best bang for your bucks and well being is in more solar. Stay grid Connected, have your FIT offset your useage and do other things with your time.
Yep, set up the roid and play with it to your hearts content, you don't need to Justify it.

Take notice of another lesson I have learned in life mate,  When you turn what you enjoy into work, it becomes WORK.
There will be a whole load difference between playing and fixing your genny when it suits you than having to go out on a cold effing night to see why the bastard has stopped or start it up, shut it down or what ever.

 :D