Author Topic: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore  (Read 1676 times)

saba

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witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
« on: May 28, 2018, 08:09:32 AM »
Maybe somebody knows wich liner to put in a standard lister block. By now i have a few blocks that could do with a new inner part. I have searched the forum but i cannot find the real pointer.
Ithink it is cheaper to go to a machine shop with a few liners under my arm then let him search for the good match.

Regards bernhard

ajaffa1

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Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2018, 09:18:41 AM »
Hey Bernhard, I`m in the same boat requiring a cylinder sleeving. There are two types of sleeve (wet and dry) the dry ones have a wall thickness of around 3mm and are pressed into place, with an interference fit of around 3 thou, before being machined top and bottom. Wet sleeves have a much thicker wall and involve machining the barrel out through to the water jacket. The sleeve is pressed into place and has o rings to maintain a water tight seal top and bottom. I believe that quite a lot of Indian clone engines now come with a wet liner which is relatively easy to replace.

You might want to check out Dieselspanner who did a very good restoration recently and showed a picture of a dry sleeve.

Good luck, keep us posted,
Bob








mikenash

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Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2018, 09:58:13 AM »
Hi Bernard, Hi Bob

I had this same conversation with a very good local machine shop last year

FWIW this was the conclusion:

There are plenty of liners around and they're cheap - maybe $100?  They can bore your barrel to size and press in a new liner and trim the top and bottom etc.  Then, if you have a piston - or dimensions of the one you want to use - they will use their experience to decide on a clearance and machine the liner internally (bore it) to make it circular and of the right size

This is where it gets potentially trickier.  Original Listers have a really clever, chrome-coated bore designed to hold a film of oil and resist wear - that "hard" bore is designed to work in combination with "soft" piston rings - I think I have that right and others, more knowledgeable, will correct me if I dont

Your new bore will be of "soft" cast iron and will require "hard" (perhaps chromed?) piston rings - and that may require machining work to the piston - depending on what is available?

That is my understanding

So a "rebore" is only half the question, I believe

"do your homework" is probably the advice

FWIW the finished job of re-sleeving, trimming and boring to suit a piston dimension and then "facing" the barrel square top and bottom was $390

I just bought  new, Indian, barrel for the same price

Cheers, Mike

ajaffa1

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Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2018, 12:22:17 PM »
Hey guys, I concur. I can buy a whole new cylinder casting for about one third of the price of repairing the original. There are different qualities of replacements available, as far as I know, no one is supplying a chrome plated cylinder block to the original specification. If anyone knows otherwise please let us know.

Bob

saba

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Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2018, 12:35:10 PM »
Thanks for the replies, I was hoping somebody could point me to "cheapliners.com" page 3 thats the one you need.
 A few years ago a machine shop did a job for me on a perkins 4 cil. I think it was around $450 for 4  new dry liners in the block, the liners came with the overhaul kit.
Some time ago i bought two blocks in india but the quality was so bad that I took them of again.One was seeping coolant from casting faults under the paint and the otherone just had a small casting fault in the liner surface I never even bother to use it.

So I have to do something with the original ones I have.

regards Bernhard.



Johndoh

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38ac

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Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2018, 07:52:57 PM »
 You are over thinking it. ;)  Any shop that has the capibilities to bore and install sleeves knows what where and how to aquire the correct one for your application and most ( I wont) intall one unless I supply it. Has nothing to due with profit, has everything to due with who is going to eat the cost if issues crop up. You do NOT want to bore a non wet sleeve block for an India wet sleeve. You want a dry one. I use 3/32 wall sleeves made the two best in the buisiness. The material is superior to the OEM cast iron . The bore is finished after installation to Lister specs so you drop in a standard piston with rings for cast iron bore and that's it. If the shop know's thier stuff they will leave a ridge in the bottom of the bore, that way it is held from moving both by the press fit and by being captive by the head gasket and the ridge in the bottom.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

mikenash

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Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2018, 12:35:21 AM »
also:

https://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Lister-CS-type-Cylinder.html

I bought an Indian head for my Cs a while back.  seems to run just like a OE one.  I would consider an Indian cylinder

Cheers

saba

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Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2018, 02:30:52 AM »
Thanks for the replies, I contacted the machine shop some weeks back and they are to busy at the moment. For them this is something to do in a spare hour.
I will ask him and will feed back the result to  here, might take a while .

About the cilinder of stationairy eng parts, maybe they have better control over the quality of the parts they reseave. I ordered a buch of parts directly from india most was ok but the cilinderblock I used first after mounting and running the engine I found out the coolingwater side cover was made of cheap putty and steel,of course the putty fell out after 10 minutes  could put my finger in the hole, but easy to replace with original cover. then after a few running hours the block started seeping cooling water from multiple places from the cast from under the paint. Come on...

Probebly I was just unluckey.

Thanks for the suggestions,

Bernhard

38ac

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Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2018, 12:08:12 PM »
There are a lot of reject castings that make their way out if India no matter who you buy them from. What does make a difference is who will do something about it after the sale.   

One of the posters had mentioned India blocks with chrome bores. Yes indeed their are chromed bore non-sleeved 7 stud blocks made in India. The parts kits I have in stock have them. To tell you the truth with today's ring materials and lubricants I think Id rather just have cast iron and no thave to deal with the idiosyncrasies of chrome bores.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

listeroil

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Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2018, 03:36:56 PM »
Saba

You do not say where you live in your profile but if you live in the UK.
 Westwood cylinder liners might have just what you need.
   
Part No.              Inside Diameter       Outside Diameter         Length      
                           MM    Inch              MM       Inch             MM            Inch    
WCL 40F      114.30   4.500   120.73   4.753   250.83   9.875   

https://www.westwoodcylinderliners.co.uk/products/browse-by-size/

Mick

ajaffa1

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Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2018, 11:09:11 PM »
I agree with 38ac, The Listard chrome was effective when originally used, nowadays with improvements in metallurgy and lubrication a steel or cast iron bore with hard rings should be reliable and have good longevity.
Which brings us back to the question of which oil to use and should it be filtered?

Bob

mikenash

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Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2018, 12:02:27 AM »
Interesting.

I'm behind the eight-ball tech-wise on this . . .

So is the thinking that a "soft" iron bore, with the correct "hard" steel rings matched to it, will give good longevity?

(Bearing in mind - as has been discussed to death - that oil and filtration is much much better than 60 years ago)

And, not to re-ignite the debate but, with  a "rebuilt" engine would you think of using a modern detergent and filtering those suspended particles?  Or an older-style oil like that Morris stuff and allowing particles to sink

(I guess the big-end and mains are still 60 years old . . . .

Cheers

ajaffa1

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Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2018, 12:41:09 AM »
Hey Mike, There has been endless debate about which oil to use in slow speed diesel engines. I cannot see that adding a filter will do any harm and may do some good as long as it does not clog up and cause oil starvation. Some oil filter housings have a bypass valve to prevent this from happening.
I think a much greater cause of wear in any engine is cold starting when the lubricant is thick and does not flow easily. The huge mass of a Lister/Listeroid engine requires a long time to reach full operating temperature and condensation in the crankcase can also be a problem. I have wondered about building some sort of oil heater but it`s probably more trouble than it`s worth.

Bob

mikenash

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Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2018, 12:46:17 AM »
Yep, as far as I can tell the oil in the sump of my old CS was an emulsion of tar, rainwater and diesel - it didn't seem to mind  :)