Author Topic: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.  (Read 2521 times)

38ac

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Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2018, 02:52:48 PM »
For as long as there has been gibb keys people have seen similar issues with heads sheared off and same people have been looking for an easy work around and so far none have surfaced.  What I do in the shop is same thought pattern I use with twisted off bolts and studs,  avoid methods that have the potential to make the problem worse. Unsuccessful welding makes things to hard to drill with ordinary bits, off center drilling has it's own set of problems. I avoid drilling except as last resort and have never had to do it,, yet.   You can google removing stuck gibb keys or similar and get all kind of information.  How I do it is not easily or cheaply replicated but neither do I make the problem worse with my methods.  If it makes you feel good spray some pen oil on it otherwise just avoid the mess and have at it. Hopefully there is at least a small bit of room between the flywheel and housing, if not then the first thing I do is cuss whoever installed them >:(  If there is even a small amount of room to move inward mount an old  taper lock pulley hub to the shaft right at the end. I then use two porta power cylinders between the hub and flywheel to push the flywheel inward. If the key stays put on the shaft it can usually then be knocked out with a long chisel working through the spokes. If it moves with the flywheel all is not lost as you have indeed loosened it to some extent.  Next tool is similar to what was posted, a length of pipe that fits over the shaft and long enough to reach the flywheel and a couple inches  past the end of the crankshaft. Make a cap for the pipe from at least 3/8" steel that has hole a bit larger than 1" in the middle. You need  1" fine thread grade 8 bolt and nut or a length of grade 8 all thread (warning! $spendy$$)  The nut gets tack welded to the cap and goes inside of the pipe. Weld the cap to the pipe. Adjust the length of the pipe so you maximize use of the threads you have on the bolt then cut a slot in the pipe the width and length of the exposed key. Do not make the slot so wide that you can get weld on the shaft.  Weld the pipe to the key and then tighten the puller bolt up tight to the shaft. I cannot type exactly how far to tighten it but you dont want to break your puller at this point.  Then go find something else to do for a couple hours.  When you return see if the puller has loosened. If not then its your judgement how hard to lean on the puller. I do NOT like to heat flyhweel hubs and avoid it except as only recourse. I will break the puller before I use heat and have only had one that required it and it wasn't much. If the flywheel try to come with the key you need a helper to knock on the flywheel hub while the puller is being turned
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mikenash

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Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2018, 07:07:53 PM »
anti-spatter aerosol spray  :)

ajaffa1

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Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2018, 09:53:34 AM »
anti-spatter aerosol spray  :)
Don`t use that expensive sh1t anymore, a mate who is professional welder, swears by olive oil spray which can be bought in any supermarket for 1/4 the price. Works great.

Bob

Viking66

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Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2018, 11:23:09 AM »
I gathered up all the bits I need to Make this happen...(Power of Positive Thinking ;))  So tonight after work my plan is set.

I will keep you all posted.

I do not have any Anti-Splatter Spray, or Olive Oil Spray so I will go for the old can method to avoid the splatter...

Thom

ajaffa1

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Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2018, 11:49:01 AM »
Good luck with it Thom. It didn`t work for me first time, the weld broke once and I stripped the thread on the stud rod the second time. Plenty of lubrication and washers recommended. Take your time and if it still won`t move tension it and apply plenty of penetrating oil, leave overnight and tension again in the morning. Heat is your last resort but can do more harm than good if overused. keep us informed.

Bob

glort

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Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2018, 12:24:31 PM »

I would also try hammering  ( very carefully and with controlled force) the flywheel hub and maybe the end of the crankshaft. Not pounding the bejesus out of them,  but some firm but non damaging repeated gentle blows to shake things loose.

I have seen the mechanic that works for my father Do this on bearings and pulleys that seemed impossible to shift, Belting the side of the shaft with a soft hammer and in other places like the end of the puller had these seemingly frozen bearings come off with ease.
Took repeated torque and hammering and re torque to get them off but the stresses on the puller and other things were not great.  Just a case of a little at a time rather than great force. I would try hammering the hub back tot he engine and also from the sides 90o to the key.

I have seen him hammer other things as well to remove them in what seemed funny places. On the sides and in the opposite direction to what he wanted them to come which seemed strange but certainly got the desired results.  Some things he says he tries to ovalise just  a fraction of a thou which is enough and some he is just trying to break the bond between the 2 surfaces.
 The bit I have had occasion  to try myself  on a few parts seems to work .

Torque up and hammer away and keep checking your tension. the hammering makes the puller come fractionaly loose. At first you may thing it is just the puller loosing tension but after a few goes you see the small margin you have made and see it's working. It's not fast at all but it is effective.

 You will probably be as surprised as I have been at what some firm but careful blows can do with getting things like this moving. 

ajaffa1

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Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2018, 01:02:47 PM »
Way to go Glort, the gentle use of a persuader can be very effective (shame we can`t use them on politicians) Another trick I have used successfully in the past is freeze spray. I haven`t seen it in Australia but in the UK it was commonly used to freeze water pipes where no stop valve was available. They come with a sealed bandage which you wrap around the shaft or pipe, you then vent the contents off the freezing canister into the bandage. The solvent evaporates very rapidly dropping the shaft/pipe temperature to approx. minus 30 degrees Celsius. Very good for sealing water pipes and shocking stuck components out of their slumber. A bit pricey but ok as a last resort.

Bob

mike90045

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Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2018, 07:44:01 AM »
Way to go Glort, the gentle use of a persuader can be very effective (shame we can`t use them on politicians) Another trick I have used successfully in the past is freeze spray. I haven`t seen it in Australia but in the UK it was commonly used to freeze water pipes where no stop valve was available. They come with a sealed bandage which you wrap around the shaft or pipe, you then vent the contents off the freezing canister into the bandage. The solvent evaporates very rapidly dropping the shaft/pipe temperature to approx. minus 30 degrees Celsius. Very good for sealing water pipes and shocking stuck components out of their slumber. A bit pricey but ok as a last resort.   Bob   

You can go too cold, and break things.  Common way to  steal bicicles, freez the lock with cold spray, whack it 1 time, and it shatters into dust
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mikenash

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Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2018, 08:24:37 AM »
Good luck with it Thom. It didn`t work for me first time, the weld broke once and I stripped the thread on the stud rod the second time. Plenty of lubrication and washers recommended. Take your time and if it still won`t move tension it and apply plenty of penetrating oil, leave overnight and tension again in the morning. Heat is your last resort but can do more harm than good if overused. keep us informed.

Bob

I'm a fan of heat.  If you use a propane/MAPP gas torch you won't over-heat the hub unless you hold it for a long time in one place.  But if you heat all around the hub - alternating spots around it - until dirt/grease smokes off it and paint starts to sizzle, you'll be fine.  Even better if you do it while under a bit of tension from the puller.  All you are wanting to do is to expand the hub a very small amount so that its bond with the shaft is reduced.  AND, once it has cooled down, then penetrating oil will penetrate much more easily.  Tension, heat, penetrant . . . good luck

dax021

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Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2018, 08:58:02 AM »
And, as has been mentioned before, the best penetrating oil money can buy is homemade, 50% ATF 50% Acetone.  Works very well.

Viking66

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Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2018, 11:17:35 AM »
Well attempt number 1 Fail!!  It broke the All-Thread, but the part that I welded on to the Key is still there and stable.  I left enough space between the end of the All-Thread and the hub to be able to get something behind it like Gib Key Tool. 

I have tried a few things so far, but still no movement.  I am looking to buy a tool, but close to $40.00 (Tool cost + shipping) is a lot for a tool I may only use 2 times, so I am still mucking about in my Garage for something that may work instead.

I am not one to give up easily..believe me, so this too will one day be a fond memory on the journey of my New to me 24/2  LOL

I will take a pic later of what I am now working with and we can round table and throw out ideas  :D ;)

Just how long are the Gib Keys we deal with?

Thom
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 11:36:20 AM by Viking66 »

dieselspanner

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Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2018, 12:17:16 PM »
For what it's worth.....

Tune the radio on to a station playing zydeco 24/7, get a cold one..........

Assuming all thread is what I know as studding, continuously threaded round bar, get a larger, much larger size.

Make an end cap for the shaft that will support the studding 'half on' the out board end of the shaft, after welding it to the gib head key.

Squirt plenty of 10% ATF / 90% acetone around the  place and grease the thread. put as much tension as you dare on the studding, making sure it stays parallel to the shaft. Keeping it all parallel is the key to gaining maximum force.

With the shaft at 12 o'clock, beat on the boss at 3 and 9 o'clock with 2 similarly weighted hammers, at the same time for a few seconds.

Have a good chug on the can, turn the radio up and repeat every few minutes, whilst doing something else, keep squirting the ATF mix on. Pack up when you've had enough, but leave the tension on.

Try again tomorrow.

The theory is that you will fractionally ovalise the bore, allowing the lube to travel along the shaft. I've had some success with similar methods removing marine propellers and couplings from stainless steel prop shafts.

As Butch said, if there's room try and drive the flywheel towards the crankcase, with the tension on. Above all take your time, more beer and zydeco.......

Cheers Stef
 
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

38ac

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Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2018, 12:24:55 PM »
The learning curves with such problems are pretty steep and often people get themselves in real trouble before they stop but at least you are not at that point, LOL.   I do realize that the average owner isnt going to invest in tooling like I have to do one job but there was a reason for the grade 8 spec for bolt or all thread in my post. 8) Remember that if it wasn't stuck hard the head would not be off of the key to begin with.

I had an engine in my shop that the owner had manged to mangle the key, shaft and flywheel so bad with weld, holes, and beat and bang that  I had to take the engine down and pull the main bearing housing crankshaft and flywheel as a unit.  I then had to saw and then break the main bearing housing  off the crankshaft.  I welded the key to the crankshaft and everything went to a 50 ton press to side the flywheel off the key. What a mess!  I once again go back to,, study what your about to attempt and dont make the problem worse!!!
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 12:27:04 PM by 38ac »
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ajaffa1

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Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2018, 12:26:42 PM »
Hey Viking66, like I said before My first attempt didn`t work either I also managed to the snap the all-thread. I simply ground it off and welded a new piece in place and tried again. Gibb key came out on the second go. I suspect that the heat from the welding process may have helped loosen things.

Above all else avoid Stef`s advice to consume dangerous quantities of cold beer. It does nothing for the gibb key and irritates the sh1t out of the wife. :laugh:

chin up mate,
Bob

dieselspanner

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Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2018, 07:58:39 PM »
Don't be too alarmed by people who decry the use of beer whilst engaging in the fine art of Bush Engineering. It slows down the whole process, allowing for further cogitation after retiring early with the lads to argue over who's made the biggest cock up.

The same people probably confuse zydeco and prozac...............

Cheers

Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.