Author Topic: The future of electric Vehicles.  (Read 11306 times)

mike90045

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #360 on: July 08, 2018, 06:34:15 AM »
So, does burning fossil fuel raise Co2, or chopping down forests and burning them to clear land, increase Co2. 
How about a month long volcanic eruption? (I guess that has some cooling aerosols too)

So many factors, different models that never converge, and raw data needing to be "processed" before it can be used.  And the largest factor, solar variability.

I'm quite skeptical myself, predicted cooling in the 70's , freon eating the ozone layer,  magnetic poles weakening and moving, dire warnings of warming. 

dieselspanner

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #361 on: July 08, 2018, 08:00:31 AM »
I don't know either, however should we not take the action that may be needed then we'll regret it far more that trying to save a planet that was doing alright on it's own...............

Cheers Stef
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BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #362 on: July 08, 2018, 04:33:38 PM »
All the skepticism Mike90045 raises are specifically from the program of misinformation funded by the Koch brothers and their program of using their inheritance tax avoiding foundation interest money to fund a political agenda for their increased personal and corporate profits.  ''Dark Money'' is a depressing but eye opening book about how they and others have gone about this, with amazing success. 

Freon was phased out worldwide to address the ozone problem, with global cooperation, and the result was that the problem was arrested and is now reversing (the molecules last 20-100 years). This is an example of taking action on the best scientific data, and having it work. Not the other way around.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/06/ozone-layer-mend-thanks-chemical-ban

None of the theories such as predictions of another ice age were in any way a consensus of the field. They were the musing of a few individuals based on some evidence of a repeating pattern of ice ages.  Using this type of distortion of science to confuse and delay action on CO2 is exactly the mission of the Kochs, and it has been highly effective in the US.



LowGear

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #363 on: July 08, 2018, 05:50:18 PM »
My father always questioned the conservation mantra of not too many years ago.  "Only YOU can prevent forest fires!"  He pointed out lightening strikes.  The part of the mantra that he didn't see was that only people can modify their behavior to reduce the number of forest fires.  We do many activities that reduce the consequences of humans being on the planet.  Natural phenomena does not release us from intelligent, responsible or moral behavior.  Back to the camp site.
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32 coupe

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #364 on: July 08, 2018, 07:28:56 PM »
Bruce,
"Freon"  being phased out in my opinion has been a joke.

R22  was supposed to be out 20 years ago. But it is still available. Can be purchased at
any AC supply house. You can't  buy R22 equipment any more but the gas is still out there.

R22 is not supposed to be manufactured now but look on line and you will see the Chinese
are manufacturing TONS of the stuff as well as exporting it every day.
I saw a documentary not to long ago about a man who went to China, saw it being made,
and asked about importing to the US. The response was that China could not directly import
into the US but by shipping through other countries they could eventually get it into the country.

It will eventually go away but I would.be surprised if it were any time soon.

Have you seen the replacement for 134a in cars ? That is scary stuff that is flammable !
Mercedes has been fighting it in court for a number of years. But it is here in a few cars
and widely used in europe. At $800 for a 10 pound jug it's going to be very costly for
consumers.

R410 was supposed to be the "end all" for R22 but it has come under attack as of
late and I can see another battle brewing over that.

No matter what happens it will only be more expense for the consumer.



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BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #365 on: July 08, 2018, 11:04:59 PM »
As badly implemented as it was, the improvement in the arctic ozone hole is measurable. I think you've missed the forest for the trees-  vast amounts of R12 was never put in service, with only mild disruption.  Perfection isn't in the available range of choices for any human activity, certainly not for regulations. 

The stumble ahead continues as HFC's that had less impact on ozone have been found to be highly effective as greenhouse gasses. 

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/epa-bans-greenhouse-gas-19197

Certainty and constancy are illusions.










« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 11:15:15 PM by BruceM »

broncodriver99

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #366 on: July 09, 2018, 01:12:54 AM »
"Freon" is a trade name copyrighted by Chemours/Dupont. There are many other names used.

R22 was supposed to be out 20 years ago. But it is still available. Can be purchased at
any AC supply house. You can't  buy R22 equipment any more but the gas is still out there.

R22 is not supposed to be manufactured now

It will eventually go away but I would.be surprised if it were any time soon.

R410 was supposed to be the "end all" for R22 but it has come under attack as of
late and I can see another battle brewing over that.

No matter what happens it will only be more expense for the consumer.

R-22 is not officially slated to be phased out in the US until Jan. 1, 2020. It was allowed in new equipment until 2010. In 2020, production of new R-22 ends. Anything already manufactured and in the distribution network will still be available as well as recycled refrigerant. R-22 will be around for the next 20 years. The amount of equipment that uses R-22 is astounding. One can still buy virgin R-12 if there is a need, it is just very expensive.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 01:20:57 AM by broncodriver99 »

broncodriver99

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #367 on: July 09, 2018, 01:13:27 AM »
CFC's were the first to be banned and are the ones that have been attributed with causing damage to the ozone layer. It was found that the chlorine atoms were the culprit. They were replaced with HCFC's(R-22 being one) which have a lower ozone depletion potential but still have a high potential as a greenhouse gas. HCFC's have been replaced with HFC's(R-134a, R-404a, R-410A). HFC's have almost zero ozone depletion potential but have a high greenhouse gas potential. Most HFC's have a higher greenhouse gas value than R-22. HFC's also take much longer to break down in the atmosphere than HCFC's so their greenhouse potential sticks around longer. Now there is a big push to replace HFC's with HC (hydrocarbon) refrigerants, R-290 is the most widely used and is what most manufacturers are shifting to as a replacement for R-134a. R-290 is a high grade of propane. It has been in use for a long time in specialty equipment but is now becoming the standard in consumer appliances and small systems with a small refrigerant charge and therefore explosion risk is minimal.

A big problem with HFC's is that many are zeotropic meaning the compounds within the blend have different boiling points(called glide) and different leak rates. If a system using a zeotropic refrigerant suffers a leak and only part of the charge is lost the remaining refrigerant must be recovered and sent off for destruction and virgin refrigerant must be used to recharge the system. If one "tops" off the charge the pressures and temperatures become skewed and the equipment will likely not operate correctly.

Another big problem with HFC's is the oil that is required. They use a very high grade of POE oil that is extremely sensitive to moisture. It also has a tendency to plate out forming a powdery substance that blocks capillary tubes and TXV's when exposed to high condensing temperatures. This usually burns the compressor up causing a piece of equipment to end up in the landfill. R-410a has the added problem of running very high discharge pressure. There are a lot of leak failures in R-410a equipment and all of the major manufacturers have had a hard time with ruptured coils. So, even though R-410a might be marginally better for the atmosphere much more of it is making it's way into the atmosphere due to leaking equipment because of the higher pressures.

I can say that equipment using CFC's and HCFC's seems to last longer with much less repair being required. Some of this may be due in part to the recent onslaught of cheaply built imported equipment but the inherent problems with HFC's definitely cause a lot more service problems than CFC's and HCFC's ever had. The question is, is the environment better off with refrigerants that are marginally better for the atmosphere but have inherent problems that cause a lot of equipment to be land filled prematurely due to failure? If you add in the energy and resources used to manufacture equipment to replace the large numbers that fail prematurely are HFC's really better for the environment?

It will be interesting to see how the HC's do. One advantage to the new HC refrigerants is that manufacturers can return to using mineral oil like CFC and HCFC systems and get away from POE oil and it's issues. I would like to see a lot more large scale systems going back to ammonia chiller systems as they are extremely efficient and ammonia being naturally occurring has near zero effect on the atmosphere.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 01:45:35 AM by broncodriver99 »

glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #368 on: July 09, 2018, 01:31:06 AM »
I have been running ordinary LPG in my aircon for 3-4 years now and it works great.  The AC has never been colder and That's fact not wishful thinking.
The new gasses are glorified LPG that's supposedly better filtered and de watered.  How much or if it's even needed I don't know but I guess if nothing else it's a good justification for the 10X higher price and to deter people doing what I did and undermining the vehicle AC servicing industry.

I really don't get the complaints about the gas being flammable as a danger in vehicles.  The Gas charge would be around 200G with LPG, about the same as one of those disposable canisters. Why the hell people would be worried about that when there is 50-100L of petrol under their backsides I have no ideal.
In the case of a gas leak in an accident the gas will dissipate far more quickly than a petrol spill and certainly diesel. If it does light it will burn off in seconds and not have enough heat to set anything else on fire.  More like a flash of flame than anything like a sustained burn. LPG based refrigerants have been used over 10 years on hundreds of thousands of cars and in a survey some years back on 500K I think it as vehicle accidents in cars that used LPG based refrigerant in their AC, not ONE had caused a fire. there were many cases where the fuel tanks had ruptured and caused fires or death.
 Those odds are good enough for me.

Sospe you also have to look at the accident. Not every collision is front on. Get hit at the back or sides by a fast moving semi and your AC catching fire is a very long way down the list on your concern priorities.

To be worried about gas in the AC is a totally irrational fear IMHO. even if you are driving an EV, i'd still be worried more about a ruptured battery pack and the gasses or fire that could cause.

I think most people have a bit of an irrational fear of gas anyway because it's under pressure and makes a noise when released. The fact is though it has nothing like the flamability or energy of petrol and in my book is inherently safer.  I'll light burners with gas going directly in and run them on it.
You won't catch me with petrol anywhere near anything I'm playing with like that.

I have done enough real world hand on mucking around to learn well and truly what a wise person avoids in order to not be a Darwin award Candidate.

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #369 on: July 09, 2018, 06:26:59 AM »
Thanks for the explaination on developments in HC, HCFC's, etc, broncodriver. Much appreciated.  Given the alternatives I agree that HC looks the way to go.  Are you familiar with lithium bromide refrigeration systems?  They have been used for solar (non-PV) driven refrigeration on commercial scale but not residential.  I read an article mentioning some technical challenges with corrosion and materials compatibility.  It seemed like a good solution for building cooling for the lower deserts of AZ...but has not caught on, and I wondered why.

broncodriver99

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #370 on: July 09, 2018, 03:45:57 PM »
Are you familiar with lithium bromide refrigeration systems?  They have been used for solar (non-PV) driven refrigeration on commercial scale but not residential.  I read an article mentioning some technical challenges with corrosion and materials compatibility.  It seemed like a good solution for building cooling for the lower deserts of AZ...but has not caught on, and I wondered why.

Yes, they are an absorption type system and have been around since the 1950's. Lithium Bromide is an alternative to the Ammonia/Hydrogen absorption process. Absorption systems are Very interesting as they use waste heat or collected heat to generate a cooling process. The RV refrigerator is an example of an absorption system though it uses ammonia, hydrogen, and water. The lithium bromide "brine" that is used in the absorption process is very corrosive and requires a lot of maintenance to maintain proper operation. There is some new development going on with absorption systems but unless one has a lot of waste heat on hand they aren't practical as the compression refrigeration system is much cheaper and more efficient. There used to be a lot of "gas" powered air conditioning systems in the mid-west and on the west coast. They were absorption systems powered by NG/LPG. They were handy where electricity prices were higher than gas prices or electrical service was limited.  The company that made them halted production sometime in the '80's. One reason absorption systems may be slow to catch on in the desert is that most systems over a few tons of capacity are water cooled.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 03:50:55 PM by broncodriver99 »

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #371 on: July 09, 2018, 04:29:47 PM »
I  recall that the lithium bromide systems could operate on lower temperatures- so that a solar hot water loop with say 85% efficiency panels could be used instead of PV (16%).  The Audobon Debs Park building outside LA uses lithium bromide/solar hot water system for cooling; it uses 200 degree F water to operate.

I have a propane/ammonia  operated refrigerator/freezer. It takes a big burden off my battery bank. I modified it to be sealed combustion.  The complete absence of noise is blissful.  I just wish it was dual heat source so it could be PV heated during the day.  It uses about $15/mo worth of propane.  It's in a separate gas kitchen with good outdoor cross ventilation via windows. The gas kitchen is insulated from the rest of the house, so the waste heat doesn't heat the house in summer.  In the winter it heats that room.

buickanddeere

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #372 on: July 09, 2018, 06:04:21 PM »
Looked it up , excellent reading and very enlightening. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

buickanddeere

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #373 on: July 09, 2018, 06:07:55 PM »
CO2 only makes up .1% to .2% of all the combined greenhouse gases . 300, 600 or 900ppm is not going to make a flea phart’s difference  in a wind storm. 
  If worried about iceberg calving off Antiartica . Have a look at the unprecentes volcanic activity occurring under the icesheet.

broncodriver99

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #374 on: July 09, 2018, 06:57:28 PM »
........
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 02:49:27 PM by broncodriver99 »