Author Topic: The future of electric Vehicles.  (Read 7433 times)

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #270 on: May 16, 2018, 01:09:44 AM »
Plenty of decent DIY electrolysis setups using stainless steel screens; the only bugger is the storage.  It is a pity to not be able to use the oxygen, since as you noted, it's a hell of a fuel booster, but like you, I found Brown's gas something to be be very careful around. It's shockingly explosive.  Isolation of oxygen at the plates seems to be the preferred method, as you noted, Glort.  You need a buck converter to dial down PV voltage or your efficiency will be poor and you'll boil off your electrolyte. If you need more gas production with reasonable efficiency it must be done by adding a lot more cathode and anode area. 

I did some experimenting with hydrogen when I was considering my off grid homestead plans. You can make it quite cheaply if you have access to scrap aluminum, just add lye-water solution but be prepared to deal with the substantial heat generated. It is a fabulous co-generator of heat plus hydrogen with relatively little aluminum consumed.  It can generate gas at moderate pressure without the need for a pump if your vessel can handle it as well as the lye water.

To use it in a conventional gas burner at 10" of water pressure, you must plug up roughly 2/3 of the holes and surround the propane burner element with stainless steel wool to act as a catalyst to lower the burn temperature.  With the stainless steel wool you can see the flame as bluish. You don't want air mixed in so stock gas-air mixers must be sealed well with foil tape and silicone caulk or lighting the burner will be dangerously explosive.  It did work, but for myself I found that the higher burning temperatures caused more oxides from air gasses, and I didn't find open hydrogen burning the odorless healthy panacea I was hoping for. (I did that testing with lab grade hydrogen.)  There will be similar issues to work out with it's use in IC engines, I expect.

I did find that the modifications for burning hydrogen instead of LP or Methane were manageable, though sadly, it could not be a single burner- dual fuel setup.








glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #271 on: May 16, 2018, 05:55:01 AM »

 I found Brown's gas something to be be very careful around. It's shockingly explosive.


In the days when I was Younger, braver, sillier ( last week) and still thought life was fun, ( a lot further back)   I used to like to make bangs and explosions when friends had come round for a wood fired Pizza. I had made the Hohoho gas machine and fired the thing up and filled an ordinary Brown paper Lunchbag with the gas.
I sat it on an old plastic garbage bin and put a Cardboard box over the top to stop it blowing away in the breeze.  Made an electric detonator with just one strand of wire wrapped around a fire work wick. When I put it on a battery, Wire got hot and set off wick which ignited whaterver it was I didn't want to be near.

Told every one to stand back and set it off.
Holly mother of god! The thing went off and hit everyone with a shock wave.  The cardboard box turned to paper dust and the bin was blown to pieces.
Everyone just stood there in shocked silence with their ears ringing. Definitely a fo par that was beyond Funny. Of course the Mrs launched into me and the only thing I could say was sorry, I had no idea it would be like that.  I was hoping for a solid " Whummp!" but this really was a high speed detonation. I was a bit surprised we didn't loose windows and I was thinking of what the hell to tell the cops when they turned up as they surely would.  They didn't but that was a more good luck than anything else. Next day neighbours who were used to and amused by my explosive activities asked me what the hell I did? They felt their whole house shake.

I would have never thought I could have made such an explosion out of something in a brown paper bag.
Pretty much put an end to my explosion party tricks that was for sure.  That went from funny to not funny at all and scared even my equally normally hard to impress mates.

After that I always thought people that play with this stuff are either out their minds or don't fully comprehend what they are dealing with.
I saw people on YT using the Browns gas to fuel stoves. They are either incredibly ignorant or love life a whole lot less than even I do. With the fuel and the oxidiser in the same line/ tank, it's just asking for trouble IMHO.
I saw a YT vid where a guy had gone on previously about having a bubbler as a flash back arrestor.  Was playing with his little hohoho torch and the thing backfired into the Bubbler which was a hard plastic container with a screw on lid of about 2L Blew the thing apart and the guy caught some shrapnel in his arm.  How it didn't go all the way back into his gas bottle of the stuff and demolish him and his house I'll never know.
Not for me thanks!


Make me laugh when I hear about terrorists getting their hands on explosives.  If I wanted to Blow out a tree stump or something, I'd put about 10PSI of this stuff into a bit of metal pipe of about 5L capacity, put a spark plug in the side and uproot any damn tree there was!

 
Quote
If you need more gas production with reasonable efficiency it must be done by adding a lot more cathode and anode area.

I have a bunch of CPU heat sinks I was thinking would be good for the job and have lots of surface area.  had forgotten all about the KOH and ally.
I have bags of aluminum pellets from melting down cylinder heads with an oil burner and dropping the hot ally into a water bath. also have a 20Kg bag of Koh up there from my oily days for cleaning spills on concrete. have to see how much KOH an ally it took to make an amount of gas.

Using this method Bruce I take it the only gas produced is Hydrogen and there is no oxygen?


Quote
To use it in a conventional gas burner at 10" of water pressure, you must plug up roughly 2/3 of the holes and surround the propane burner element with stainless steel wool to act as a catalyst to lower the burn temperature. 

So make the burner area Smaller ?  Put steel wool over or around the outlet holes?  Why would you want a loer burn temp? Why not just lower the flame? Could you explain a  bit more about this please?

Quote
You don't want air mixed in so stock gas-air mixers must be sealed well with foil tape and silicone caulk or lighting the burner will be dangerously explosive.
Pure Hydrogen only into the burner?  One would normally change the jet in the mixer for natural gas or LPG but you are saying no mixing with air at all?


Quote
There will be similar issues to work out with it's use in IC engines, I expect.

Interesting. I thought half the reason people championed Hydrogen because all you get out is air and water. If there or oxides such as the ones they are trying to curb now with such effort, this will be a real drawback.

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #272 on: May 16, 2018, 02:50:31 PM »
The reason for reducing the gas burner holes is that hydrogen burns so much hotter than LP/methane that when adapting a gas cooking burner, you need less holes if operating at the same regulated pressure and with a standard lp/methane jet and metering valve regulating gas flow.  The stainless steel wool promotes mixing and as a catalytic surface helps reduce the flame temperatures and has the advantage of letting you see the flame.  Sufficient air mixing is at the stainless steel wool, premixing just creates an explosive mix so is avoided.  I found the information on the use of stainless steel wool somewhere on the web; I did not develop this myself, only experimented with it as an option for my off grid home.  I thought that variable gas rate generation under modest pressure to avoid pumping and storage was possible by raising/lowering the scrap aluminum into the lye bath or by controlling lye-water pumping rate, spraying the lye over the scrap aluminum. 

Various schemes have been proven for hydrogen generation via aluminum, including a water filled, aluminum wire feed against a rotating aluminum drum with electrical current applied to the wire. The drum speed and wire feed rate control the gas generation rate. One inventor used this successfully for an aluminum-hydrogen driven car.

Aluminum in lye water does NOT generate oxygen, which makes it an appealing hydrogen source.  Just make sure that you let it run to purge any air in your generation tank- the first gas you get will have enough air in it to be explosive.  An be prepared to deal with the rapidly heating lye water/aluminum solution...it will get very hot and will melt plastic unless you provide cooling. (You can imagine how I learned that lesson.)

The hydrogen car fantasy- that only water drips from the tailpipe, is only just that. The NOx problem is still there, when burning air.  If you burned brown's gas (with oxygen, not air) then it would be true.




glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #273 on: May 16, 2018, 10:43:37 PM »

Thanks Bruce, Very interesting.

Sounds like there are a good Number of ways to control the generation.  The one with the wire sounds like something that's an easy conversion for a MIG welder.

Once again it seems the promoters of an idea, ( Hydrogen Fueled Vehicles) are spin doctoring the advantages and BS'ing people over the advantages.
Nox is the evil of all  SI IC engines and it seems that Hydrogen does not over come it. Given the high flame temps of Hydrogen and thats what causes Nox in the first place, seems it could be a real obstacle with this fuel.

Never seemed a good/ efficent/ logical idea to me to feed exhaust gas back into an engine. I realise it's like " dead" air and why it's done, just I have always thought of engines in a performance application and that is you want all the clean air you can get in them.  Same with PCV. Only makes things dirty inside manifolds and ends up putting gunk back in the engine.  VW and Toyota have problems with this where it actually clogs the manifolds and they have to be removed and cleaned or replaced.

None the less it seems there is a strong push by some Manufacturers for hydrogen. I can see problems like how fueling stations store it and even how it's delivered but I guess they can be overcome. I still see a lot of resources put into making it though as the majority of it is commercially made now by cracking Fossil Fuels.  For all those people jumping up and down saying we have to get off fossil fuels, I think they yet again need to look beyond the hype and see what they are actually talking about.

Sound like home Hydrogen could be pretty easy though.  One could store it with inverted drums in water with some weight on the top to give the right pressure. Wonder how far 150L of the stuff would go for Cooking.  Don't know I'd put it in the house but an old Converted BBQ might be good for a conversation piece at a party!
Then again, People would ask me why I wasn't Burning Veg oil......

ajaffa1

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #274 on: May 16, 2018, 11:03:45 PM »
Don`t remember the guys name but he had a solar setup producing hydrogen which he safely stored in tanks filled with Lithium 6 deutoride. The tanks would release the hydrogen on demand when heated with an electric element.

glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #275 on: May 17, 2018, 11:37:04 AM »

I'm sure that electrics are going to be a big thing in the future.  If nothing else, they are something new and hyped that manufacturers can sell and no doubly make premium profits on. Like any New product from colour TV's, DVD players, Digital cameras and mobile phones, they will have a Keeping up with the world sensation about them and be the talking point at Cocktail parties. You'll have to have one to be socially acceptable.... If you ever were which I never was! :0)

I wonder about futre developments with them.  Will in the next 20 years they have the power and capacity to pull your 3 ton trailer as is a big selling point now with towing capacity.  If they can pull it, will it be a decent distance or will you have to stop 3 times to get to the fishing hole normally an hour away?
Helped my neighbour this morning back his 30 Ft Caravan back into the shed.  Felt sorry for his poor Mrs gettng yelled at and knew he wouldn't yell at me and having reversed  big trailers and the like, I knew where his frustration was coming from.

I thought about them and so many others like my Aunt and Uncle whom I call the great gray Nomads.  Caravaning is a BIG industry here and huge part of the tourism scene. Neighbour was telling about how they did 3200Km in 3.5 weeks all around the state.
I was thinking about how electrics will influence this.  How long will it be before an electric can pull a 2.5-3 ton Van/ trailer? How long for they can pull it say 500Km which would be an expected distance? How long to recharge and How in hell are they going to get the power in these remote places?

I single petrol tanker, especially a B double can refuel a LOT of vehicles.  Even semi trailers carrying 1000L would be catered for 80 Times over.
A lot of these road houses and small towns have their own generators and aren't even on the grid or have a very limited capacity.
How in Hell is a road house on the Nullabor going to provide power for all the vehicles that come though?   They would have to have acres of solar panels or they would still be getting a semi full of diesel to run the gennys to recharge these vehicles.

In the mean time till there even is electrics with decent towing capacity and range, what's going to fill the gap? All these countries talking crap about banning IC sales in some stupid short time like 2025 might have to seriously revise their predictions.  What happens in the transition period?
Some places will have electric, some will have Diesel and some will have both but what a pain in the arse and an expense.

Might be OK for europe where you can drive through 3 countries in a day but in places like Oz, the US, Canada and others where it can easy take a day or more to get across one state, things won't be so easy.
 I also wonder who is going to foot the bill for the charging stations?  Lots of little servos Now with a few Pumps run by the family.  A manageable investment.
Getting high current lines and transformers put in or big diesel generators will be a very different thing.  Are the oil companies going to finance that like they do new servo's now? The gubbermints?  It's going to take a lot before these investments pay off and are worth while.

Also see a saturation point issue. Vehicles will have limited range so will need to charge sooner. As they hopefully improve, the range will get longer and these stations will become redundant. I would be very careful where I built or re-equuiped an existing property because you woudn't want the competition to kill your investment before it paid off.

Not saying these problems can't or won't be over come but I think they will be expensive and if people think their electric are going to be cheaper to run than an IC  probably in the next 30+ years, I think they are going to be in for a big Disappointment.

glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #276 on: May 17, 2018, 12:02:05 PM »

I was reading today ( in between setting up yet more panels) about how green ev's are.  Certainly was interesting and again shoots a lot of the hype in the foot badly.

Between the emissions/ polloution/ expended fossil fuels and greater energy investment in production, Ev's are 20-to 30% Cleaner than Modern IC's at best.
A couple of articles I read accurately pointed out the spin doctoring of the green and EV proponents that modern vehicles are still blowing smoking clouds out the tail pipe like they did in the 30's or 50's.  They highlighted just how clean modern vehicles are and the emissions standards around the world that are generally so tight.  Even if the countries emissions standards aren't great, the vehicles usually are because they are sold in multiple countries where they are so are designed to conform .

A very valid point was the mining or the rare earth and exotic materials that go into EV's and where they are located. I was enlightened in thinking that there is a limited amount of lithium.  Seems there is millions of tond of the stuff, it's just all in inaccessible, remote areas that are untouched and unspoiled... unlike they will be once you strt mining lithium, cobaly and other things that go into EV's. You might be all clean and green driving Your ev in the city with no emissions but a whole huge area of natural habitat was wiped out and pollouted forever in making the thing in the first place.

There are only 16 Mines doing lithium atm and most of the deposits are in very remote and environmentally sensitive area's. Many of these are very dry places where water is scarce and mining or rare metals takes a LOT of water. The yeild of these materials is usualy less than 1%, some as low as .1% in areas still considered viable. Guess that's what makes them precious and exotic in the first place.  Even if the raw material is processed off site, there is still going to be a huge energy expenditure of taking the ore to the processing facility and more than likely, bringing 99% of it back.  Not really a viable option especially if you are digging the stuff out a steep mountain range. 

As most places still have the majority of their power derived from fossil fuels, the whole thing of no emissions is a farce. The emissions are really just being transfered from one place to another. while it is true that on a KW for Kw basis a coal fired power station still pips a modern IC engine, It's by 10-20%.

Seems to me we are going to a lot of trouble, expense and risk for very minimal margins that I have no doubt in practicality will be closer to zero than anything else by the time the normal figure fudging, corruption, shortcutting and every other human trait and deception kicks in.

I am sure however that it will earn billions for big biz and Gubbermints.

I do wonder though what the consensus will be in even 20 or 50 years time?
Will people be looking back and saying look how far we have come since the IC engine or will they be lamenting how the world got completely suckered and why it wasn't obvious the whole electric thing was a crock from the start?

One thing I have learned in life, NOTHING is ever what it's hyped up to be.


glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #277 on: May 17, 2018, 12:41:03 PM »

And while I'm in a roll, I was checking out my favorite company of interest, Tesla.

Now I'll admit I am no fan at all but I am reasonably fair. I quick google of Tesla brought up so many negative stories, I started getting a bit sus myself.
I usually see lots of fag waving articles as the media tends to do at the mere mention of anything Green but the only thing I could find was pieces about a publicity stunt where a model x towed a Qantas 747 300M along a taxiway.

BIG EFFING DEAL!
My 25Yo 4wd could do that with ease! Select Low range 4wd, get a bit of weight over the wheels for traction and would pull a couple of locomotives tied to the back of the plane as well.  Still, they don't call them publicity stunts for nothing.
I thought it hilarious that one of the Quanta's officials noted in one report that they have been using electric tugs to to the planes in and out of hangers for over 10 years.  Ya.

Apart from that..... The news was all bad.
* They are going to shut down the model 3 line, again, for 6 days to fix the production line, again.
* The executives f the company are leaving in droves. so much so that even the fanbois on wall street who have been talking the company up are asking what the f is going on?
* Road safety mob in the US AND Switzerland are opening extensive investigations into crashes of Teslas.
* Tesla has been pulling some pretty unusual and risky accounting and Financing moves, one being effectively mortgaging the Giga factory itself.  Everything is pointing to them running out of money even faster than anyone predicted.

Anything on it's own is probably no big deal but with so many things happening all at once......

The crash in the US even to me seems a bit Meh.  Woman had auto pilot on and admitted she wasn't watching the road and ran up the back of a stationary Fire truck at 60 MPH and got out with a broken ankle.
 For once I have to agree with Elon's comment, that it was amazing she could  do that and ONLY have a broken ankle. I wouldn't expect anyone to get out of something like that in anything less than critical condition and it would still be surprising they got out of it at all.
 That to me seems one tough and safe car!

I think a problem is the very name of the technology, Autopilot.  They warn people to not take their hands off the wheel but I think the very name makes people think they can activate it and then have a snooze and wake up when they pull in the driveway of where they are going.
I think tesla would be a lot better calling it just " Driver assist"  Or " safety assist" or something that didn't make those short of braincells in the self preservation department think  it was like getting on a long distance train.

The exec thing is a worry as they are basically falling short of people with  experience in the critical areas that are the whole brands promoted USP's .
As was made out in one article, all these execs are going to competitors and people with electric car knowledge and experience are going to be VERY difficult for tesla to recruit given they are in fact the small player in the market.

Their whole premise of being the first to do affordable electrics with teh model 3 is crap anyway.  The Chevy Bolt/ Volt was years ahead and is the biggest selling EV in the US. China is gearing up to be a player and even if they take the lions share of the EV market in Asia, Tesla is going to be in trouble with that. they have invested a LOT into the asian market with showrooms, Superchargers etc and if they don't get a real fast return on that investment, that alone would  be a very serious matter.  Easy to dismiss the Chinese but thats what happened not too long ago with Solar panels and they are leading the world with them now well and truly. The chinese are already wiping the floor with Tesla in the numbers of Ev's they are selling and that's not counting the fact the Japs have the biggest selling EV in the world with the leaf.

Tesla is a very small player and while his predictions of 2500 and 5000 cars a week may sound impressive but one has to take into account the competitors churn out more vehicles than that in one model alone in some cases and there is no reason they can't do the same with an electric.
They have the car manufacturing process well and truly sorted. Musk is still making very rookie mistakes.

Certainly going to be interesting seeing how this unfolds and much to be learned on so many levels from them as well.

Their cash is being burned and drying up fast. They are behaving like a company in trouble, not one that Elon says is fine.  Their accounting practices and figures are based on calculations no one else does and therefore are fairly meaningless in the over all picture.
Must and the company have been pretty good at Pulling rabbits out of hats in the past but the more he keeps promising and failing to deliver the greater the miracle of them not going under is going to be.




buickanddeere

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #278 on: May 17, 2018, 02:55:16 PM »
Politicans will say anything to obtain votes at the next election . The electorate tends to have  a very short memory.

mike90045

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #279 on: May 18, 2018, 04:56:39 AM »
just wondering what the end-end efficiency of using refined aluminum wire and lye to generate hydrogen.
 Aluminum smelting is pretty power intensive, maybe it's useful as a "battery" but the cost is going to be pretty high.

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #280 on: May 18, 2018, 02:30:37 PM »
Both aluminum and other metals made by the Hall-Héroult process or electrolysis have been proposed as a means of energy storage. The efficiency is sub 50%...but storage is long term stable, and energy volumetric density is high. Alas, the aluminum smelting process generates a lot of "perfluorocarbons gases which are strong greenhouse gases with a long lifetime", and the hydrogen fluorides "tend to be very toxic to vegetation around the plants" (wikipedia).  So I doubt we'll see a shift to an aluminum based energy economy.

Synthetic propane (DME- dimethyl ether) is already being used around the world and may be produced via biomass and recently demonstrated biosynthesis via modified bacteria.  I like this possible solution for a renewable home/transport fuel as propane is a well proven fuel with a fairly clean exhaust.


tiger

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #281 on: May 19, 2018, 02:40:10 AM »
Some thing else to consider is the Vanadium flow batteries coming on line. Invented or made somewhat practical in OZ by a college student She developed a battery that stores the energy in the electrolyte and its capacity is determined by the amount of electrolyte one can store. They are practical so far only for stationary applications as large amounts of electrolyte are required. Several versions of electrolyte work including common sulfuric acid types. Many company's working on it, 1 in my neck of the woods, UNI Energy Technologys of Mulkilteo WA. USA.
There are several prototypes over 1 megawatts in operation.
Metro 12/2 ST 10 KW

glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #282 on: May 19, 2018, 06:40:26 AM »

Inspired by all this hydrogen talk I went and had a play after I got back from looking at all the Listers and steam engines at the local engine show.
Met a fella there who was pretty youngish, 30-35 I'd guess that had a nice CS3 on display. This thing had the original radiator setup and the bloke was telling me it had everything when he bought it at online auction including the vale cover nut, factory fuel tank cap etc.  It was in its working clothes but he had it sitting on his beautifully restored lister Auto Truck.  Apparently he's a real lister fan and ha about a Dozen+ including a bunch of D's.

Stange Fella, sid he had 2 Cs's but wanted a roid! I told him, fine if you liked building model airplane kits as a kid.

I got a 3L Bottle and put a hose fitting in the top to attach some tube. I put about a litre worth of the aluminium flakes I have and maybe 150G of lye with about 2L of water. I put the bottle in a bucket of water to keep it cool and from melting the thin walled bottle.

Nothing much happened for a fair few minutes. I could see it reacting but no gas to speak of. The aluminium flakes were a bit oxidised from being in the weather about 12 months so maybe that had something to do with it?  Eventually I started to see some output and after a while it picked up to a steady output. I got another 3L bottle, filled it with water and inverted it and put it in the bucket with the " generator" bottle. But the hose up through the bottom and times it took about 5.5Min to fill the capture bottle.  I wondered how much gas could be generated before the lye needed to be renewed.  I was surprised to see the reaction was going stronger when the bottle was full than when it started.

It would seem this process would be one where the elements would be best put in a reaction vessel and then left to generate the gas which was captured over time.

It would seem to me that you would need to make a LOT of gas for the effort to be cost effective. Lye isn't cheap even if you have the ally  ( which is fairly cheap actually) but if you compared that to how much gas you get in a BBQ bottle and the cooking or running an engine/ whatever you can do with that, seems the ally/ Koh reaction will have to be pretty long lasting.

I was wondering if the process could either be sped up or made more efficient by adding electricity say from solar panels.
I have no idea but maybe the conductivity of the lye will remain in the solution when it's chemical reactance has reached saturation point.

Would be very interesting to get measured amounts of ally and KOH and see how much gas they do produce.
If the Hydrogen is burnt straight, that would add to the amount needed over a mixed gas.

To do anything meaningful with this one would need at least a couple of 200L drums inside one another and filled with water to make a floating lid type arrangement.  Drink bottles are't going to be very practical for anything other than seeing the process works.

Still a bit apprehensive about burning the stuff when it is made though.

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #283 on: May 19, 2018, 04:33:39 PM »
Nice experimental setup, Glort. 
I agree with your assessment that the start was slow due to oxides on the aluminum surface.  I used crumpled aluminum foil for my testing in a 5 gallon sealed lid pail as reactor vessal, which got a reaction going well in just a few minutes and had a good gas generation rate.  I used a bulkhead hose barb in the sealed lid and 1/2" outlet hose, and put it in a larger water filled trough for cooling.  I filled 30 gallon plastic trash bags with the gas.  Some became weather balloons.  I lit some off with a torch.

My original intention was for gas on demand, only enough to use directly for cooking. My limited testing showed that was possible with a modest sized generating vessel..perhaps 20 gallons for a gas oven.  The lye solution seemed to last pretty well but I didn't get very far on evaluation since burning lab grade hydrogen in air created NOx which was a project killer for me.

Aluminum plates can be used for electrolysis of water but you'd have to collect the oxygen separately...I think that would be the downside of trying to accelerate the process with an electrical current boost, as you were proposing...I think you will get oxygen in that case.

Thanks, Tiger for reminding us on the flow type battery progress.  The one commercial product for the US home power market went out of business last year...not enough market yet, and quite costly.  I didn't realize there were 1-4 GW grid connected systems like that in operation now around the world, with 1-4 day storage capability.








glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #284 on: May 20, 2018, 12:01:42 PM »
Aluminum plates can be used for electrolysis of water but you'd have to collect the oxygen separately...I think that would be the downside of trying to accelerate the process with an electrical current boost, as you were proposing...I think you will get oxygen in that case.

Yes, that was obvious although completely escaped me!  :-[

I was looking some more on YT today for hydrogen videos.  Seems to be about 20X mor on hohoho gas.  On one vid there is a guy burning the stuff on a stove with a nice looking flame, on the next vid there is a guy setting off large balloons of the stuff going off like canons and he's merely lighting the end of a PVC hose and using the flashback like a wick to set them off.
How the people running stoves with the stuff don't end up with the same result, I don't know but suffice to say they either have much bigger hairy round ones than I do or a whole load less brain cells.

Once thing I came across right up your alley Bruce:

https://img.staticbg.com/thumb/view/oaupload/banggood/images/7F/A3/211ca719-dc1b-4691-958b-5a2a2fa28796.jpg



Gas carburettor.  This would make it easy to run an engine on Hydrogen I imagine and at only $31 Au ( about .27 cents US :0) ) a very economical way too!
Supposedly for a GX200 Honda which is a 6.5 Hp.  I wonder if the 8Hp petrol's are the same carb mounting? I don't have a lot of petrol's but everyone I have is an 8hp for some reason. Pressure washer, Chipper, garden tiller, generator, water pump  and Vacumm.
If this carb fit, I'd be encouraged to try a bit more with the hydrogen and get one to fit one of the engines.  Genny would be the obvious choice if the things ran the engines stable.

I was also wondering seeing the output is the same, if they would be suitable for a CS conversion.  Capacity is vastly Different though so it would depend if enough gas could be sucked through the little carb.  Could always use 2 for a serious conversion.

Might try a large garbage bag on the output of the Aluminium  gas tomorrow and see what that does output wise.