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Author Topic: The future of electric Vehicles.  (Read 16638 times)

buickanddeere

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #165 on: April 20, 2018, 12:38:23 AM »
There is a lot of oil produced in the Middle East however most is destined for Eastern Asia and Western Europe . The US is supplied mostly from Canada and  Venezuela.

mike90045

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #166 on: April 20, 2018, 02:46:01 AM »
Quote
......The few times Nuke powered ships have come into our harbors, there have been huge protests and outcrys. Trying to dock one permanently to supply power would be a completely impractical idea and get which ever gubbermint who tried it thrown out on their arses overnight pretty much. 

I'd bet the story would be different if 3/4 of the city had no power

glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #167 on: April 20, 2018, 03:20:54 AM »

I'm not sure it would.

What I do think would happen is there would be a huge outcry for more renewable investment and Subsidies for home batteries etc.
 Some people especially in the business sector would  accept a ship as a very temporary measure but I don't think that would change the overall protests and outcry.

The only thing nuke we have here is a reactor that makes Medical Isotopes and that isn't popular either.

 The trained mentality is already overwhelming renewable's and the gubberments here have been pushing that down our throats as well. Much was made of having to sign the paris agreement which is totally and utterly useless to us  but was hugely supported.  Whoever let things go to the point a nuke ship ( not that we have any) would have to be parked in the harbour to provide Power would only be heard of again when they went missing or their bodies washed up on the beach.

There was brief talk of putting a reactor out in the dessert a few years ago, a US company from memory wanted to do it but the population lit up about that so much even the nuke industry spin doctors ran away from it.

No power so we parked a nuke battleship in the harbour to provide it would still not go down well at all.
The only thing that would be accepted here is Solar, wind and you may get some Hydro past approval but that would be a job as well.

buickanddeere

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #168 on: April 20, 2018, 12:04:05 PM »

I'm not sure it would.

What I do think would happen is there would be a huge outcry for more renewable investment and Subsidies for home batteries etc.
 Some people especially in the business sector would  accept a ship as a very temporary measure but I don't think that would change the overall protests and outcry.

The only thing nuke we have here is a reactor that makes Medical Isotopes and that isn't popular either.

 The trained mentality is already overwhelming renewable's and the gubberments here have been pushing that down our throats as well. Much was made of having to sign the paris agreement which is totally and utterly useless to us  but was hugely supported.  Whoever let things go to the point a nuke ship ( not that we have any) would have to be parked in the harbour to provide Power would only be heard of again when they went missing or their bodies washed up on the beach.

There was brief talk of putting a reactor out in the dessert a few years ago, a US company from memory wanted to do it but the population lit up about that so much even the nuke industry spin doctors ran away from it.

No power so we parked a nuke battleship in the harbour to provide it would still not go down well at all.
The only thing that would be accepted here is Solar, wind and you may get some Hydro past approval but that would be a job as well.

  I wonder how those in favour of wind, solar and demand coal fossil to be torn down. How do they accept the cost and pollution from fleets of standby/peaking medium diesel gensets ? Or are they so out of touch with reality that these social justice warriors and public . That they are either unaware of the diesel gensets or they believe anything is cleaner than coal ? 

glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #169 on: April 20, 2018, 03:07:48 PM »

I think it's 2 fold.

Firstly, the gubbermint that did it try to hide it.  matter of fact, they outright blatently LIE about it and make false claims they are pulled up on but try to sell black as white in order to hide their guilt.
The independent media cover it now and then but the biased  mainstream pretend it didn't happen and just run another " Every car on the road will be electric in 10 years time" crap distraction article.

Secondly, the ones so hell bent on tearing down Coal power stations are complete hypocrites and will make endless garbage  justifications because the green washed Gubbermint of that state is responsible. That being the case, they turn a blind eye, make some more excuses, blame someone else and shove their heads further up their green backsides.

There is a LONG and well defined history here even in recent times of stuff ups of the Green movement in power. That's why their support has gone from on par with the major parties to a landslide of being completely out on there backsides come the next election.
This is just a recent one in a long list.

Still, you say the magic word " Green" and all the disciples forgive their worshiped Daiety, make all sorts of excuses to defend them and carry on with the next round of stupidity that causes more problems that what it was supposed to solve.


I was actually reading an article on these generators tonight.
The state run by the green goobers who blew up the power stations and caused the whole state to go into total darkness, Twice, are now blaming the opposition federal gubbermint for putting these generators in.  It's no secret they did this to stop the lights going out not only in that state, but causing a nationwide grid collapse as the rest of the country tried to prop them up.... which wasn't possible as there was no where near enough excess generating capacity to do so.

They spin doctor it to the other partys fault by saying they haven't supported renewables enough like the technology of today was here 20 years ago and there is unlimited barrels of money to construct things where the very people that want them protest about the location of each every damn proposal of where to put the things they say they want!!

Ummm, you planned to blow those power stations up for over a year.
 Did you not stop to think where the juice was going to come from after you took them out?
Clearly not. 

Worshipping their green religion and ridding yourself of your manufactured devil was more important than thinking about what the effects of cutting your own legs off might do to the rest of your well being.

A child would say to themselves they better hold on to that toy they don't like so they have something to play with till the one they want comes along.
If the greens had waited till the renewables were in place and THEN blown up their hated coal stations, they would have actually got some respect and seems like they had a brain cell between them.

Leaving the whole state in the dark because they were in such a gut busting hurry to do something that not only achieved nothing, but went backwards at a huge rate..... Well lets just say there is a reason they are slipping off the shallow end of the popularity polls.

LowGear

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #170 on: April 20, 2018, 08:19:18 PM »
Quote
The few times Nuke powered ships have come into our harbors, there have been huge protests and outcrys. Trying to dock one permanently to supply power would be a completely impractical idea and get which ever gubbermint who tried it thrown out on their arses overnight pretty much.

Right out of the Trump play book.  Neat stuff. 
     First step is to discount the adversary. 
     Second is to cherry pick or redirect their protest.  (These do nothing fat, dumb and happy thrill seekers were anti nuclear explosive devices rather than just nuclear power systems.)
     Third is to discount the adversary.
     Fourth is to redirect their message or point to failures of the proposed agenda.

Freedom of assembly is part of the US Constitution.  Protesting is also an important part of our cultural political heritage.  It's also an important part of governance for all systems of government. 

It's tricky projecting changes that represent the future while holding on to current attitudes and capacities.  As in glorts example of solar panels supplying all of the household needs.  His assertions seem absolutely valid given efficiencies of today's panels, automobiles and use patterns.  The rest of the world will change our attitudes and choices. 

We may start choosing to use vehicles more realistic to our needs.  Smaller vehicles for most trips.  Cars and sustainable power generators will become more efficient.  Car sharing and renting should become more realistic.

Isn't a great time to be alive.  All of these exciting choices coming to the front.  Choosing between a bit more cleaner living vs a lot more cleaner living on this planet.

Hey campers!  Pack it in - Pack it out.  Leave this campsite better than when you arrived.
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BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #171 on: April 20, 2018, 10:05:13 PM »
Fairly powerful electric bikes/trikes (3k and 6kw at 30 mph) get about 30-50 watt hr/mile.  Telsa model 3 is it's most efficient car so far, around 237 watt hr/mile.  So there is plenty of room for improvement if we stop thinking of cars as a penis substitute/military tank, and match our needed range to our actual driving needs. (Hauling more batteries adds weight, which means bigger motor, which means more batteries...)

I'm still pissed that the 50+ mpg 3 cylinder compact diesel cars that Europeans have had for 20 years don't exist in the US.




glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #172 on: April 20, 2018, 11:42:28 PM »

I'm still pissed that the 50+ mpg 3 cylinder compact diesel cars that Europeans have had for 20 years don't exist in the US.

And this is a sticking point I have with Hybrids and electrics.

We have the compact Diesels here that run forever on the smell of an oil rag as they say.
The media and others are always talking about hybrids but some of those  Euro Diesels get as good or better mileage than electrics of similar size.
They cost less and because the Euro emissions standards are so High, You could all but breathe the exhaust directly.

Unfortunately being diesel and everything fossil fueled being the work of the Devil atm, they get rubbished rather than the revering they deserve.

I owned a Peugeot 405 years ago. 2L Turbo. Beautifully comfortable interior, Used 6L / 100Km on a trip loaded to the gunwhales with the family and half a ton of our crap. Rolling along in first gear with the clutch out and mashing the throttle would smoke the tyres with ease.  The rest of the time it would pull you back in the seat hard and this was not a performance model by any stretch.

A friend thought the consumption I was getting was High compared to his but I was running it on veg oil which has less energy than Diesel so that explained a bit plus I had the fueling wound up so it pulled harder still on the top end. With gentle driving on diesel he could get his down to 4.5L / 100Km and had plenty of figures to back it up.

In this rush/ proclivity to go electric, I think other more practical solutions for right now are being over looked. These economical diesels would give some breathing time to get the infrastructure in place to trans sist to electrics f that is the way things will go.  It's all one sided, must go electric NOW and then complain like in several articles I read yesterday the infrastructure with charging hasn't even begun in reality.

I was also reading articles yesterday of predictions of all cars sold here being electric by 2030. Another article quoted numbers that .01% of vehicles sold here now are electric. To go from that to 100% in 12 years would take a product saturation never seen before in the industrial world. Given the problems even the advocates of electrics point out, the chances of all the cars sold being electric in 12 years time ( we have 4 electrics available for sale here atm)  is a VERY long shot to the point of absolute fantasy.
Maybe in 20 years which I still very much doubt but in 12 years...... More over hype that does the cause more harm than good.


And one Comment I saw on a green forum was also very telling.
It was from a greenwashed guy that had spent a couple of thousand bucks on an electric 3 wheeler he was trying to import.  He wanted it for his wife whom worked close to home and wanted to provide her with a clean alternative to her car.
He'd done his homework and got something that was legal in other parts of the world and met 1st world safety standards with lights, blinkers etc.

He was saying how the thing was held up in customs here and was going to be crushed because electric vehicles of this type ( even electric Bicycles ) are not permitted on the roads here.
He lamented how the heck was all this electrification of the fleet going to take place when he wasn't even allowed to get a 3 wheeled electric bike in the place? He spoke of how something like this could do a lot for inner city congestion and electric cars still caused the same traffic jams and took up the same space on the roads.  He made valid and sound points and showed Gubbermint statements about the commitment to electrics, clean air etc but then how they were out of touch and preventing the ideal of what they were saying happening.

It is typical. All the hype, all the Hoo haa by the gubbermints and then in reality, if there isn't a buck in it for them, in fact a lost buck, Nope, no way. Just keep listening to what we say, keep drinking the Koolaide and don't try to do anything real and practical.


Having run into a few Teslas in the flesh of late, I have to say they look like a typical American car.  Huge.
When I saw one at the shopping centre a few weeks ago on display, most people were surprised at the size of them. I heard a couple of people say they were too big and they couldn't open the Gull wing doors in their garage. I have a barn type shed and there is no way I'd get clearance in my shed to open those back doors on the beams.  For the typical garage attached to the house here, laughable.  Car is probably too long to get it in anyway.
Couple more comments I heard were from people asking how they would ever park it. Young sales guy fresh out of school jumped on the opportunity to point out the cameras on the thing but he missed the point people are scared of outright bulk.

Maybe if they can ever get any model 3's built and they are more compact, they might be more acceptable.  People here have got away from the tanks of the '50's and 70's and the average Japanese cars suits most people fine whom don't have the mentality they need a " Pickup truck" to haul... whatever it is they think they have to haul around everywhere to and from dropping the kids at footy as they think in other places.

Given the biggest selling vehicle forever in the US has been the F-150, for electrics to get a real foot in the door they are going to have to make an electric version of one of those. When they do that, electrics will have some real credibility with the US public.
Of course they will have to carry 3 overloaded tons, tow an over weight trailer up a mountain side at 60 MPH and have a 400 Mile range as seems to be the expectation of many now.

Soccer Mums demand a lot from their Pick up trucks it seems!  :0)


buickanddeere

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #173 on: April 21, 2018, 02:24:13 AM »
Tesla is a large vehicle to have enough internal volume for all the batteries . With wide  enough wheel track and long wheel base to carry all that battery weight with a low enough Center of gravity .

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #174 on: April 21, 2018, 03:26:36 AM »
Agreed, the images I've seen of the Tesla show the entire floor pan filled with flat modules full of batteries.  The curb weight of the model S is 4400-4500 lbs depending on options.  The model S battery alone is 1200 lbs.

My first Toyota Corolla Sedan, 2 door around 1969 vintage had a curb weight of 1542 lbs. 

This lust for power and range in electrics is simply bad design to appease public insanity. The chassis, suspension, battery, and motor systems are WAY too heavy, with each adding more of the others.  Then tires, brakes, and wheels have be truck sized, and you must have power assisted steering and brakes.



 


 






 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 03:42:32 AM by BruceM »

glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #175 on: April 21, 2018, 06:28:49 AM »
Tesla is a large vehicle to have enough internal volume for all the batteries . With wide  enough wheel track and long wheel base to carry all that battery weight with a low enough Center of gravity .

No need to make it big at all. 
Leaf and others are electric and they aren't anywhere near the size of the X.
I'd say the thing needs all the batteries BECAUSE of it's size not it's size is dictated by the batteries.

And the batteries may be another sticking point in the change to electric Vehicles. From what I'm reading, the current battery " ingredients" are in pretty limited supply so they are already looking at getting away from that tech but have no viable contenders as yet.
I wonder if anyone is Developing Flux capacitors? Could be a good business to invest in. Low frequency, Semi Braffed reversing tremoloid phase aligners could be in big demand in the future as well!  :laugh:

A motoring organisation here whom is pro electric did an investigation as to why the uptake and interest in electrics is low here.
A big thing they found with people who said they would like one but would not actually buy one was resale value. The few electrics here that get offered up for sale are extremely hard to shift and resale and trade ins are terrible.
This will be a big thing for electrics to overcome I think.  Another sticking point was repairs and spares.  People were concerned if they had an accident how long it would take to get parts and who was going to fix the things?  The other thing was is they did have a problem, how much and how long spares would take to get.  The organisation also found that there are only a handful of dealers around the country with people qualified to work on the vehicles they sell.... IE, Tesla, Renault and Nissan.
Seems a real Chicken or the egg dilemma

Those working on Vehicles  will go from being experts in mechanical things and often knowing beans about electricity to not knowing what  a " Gearbox " is but being electrical genius's!

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #176 on: April 21, 2018, 07:41:00 AM »
After looking at some weight figures for cars, it seems you're right, Glort.  Tesla just made a big heavy car.

The Nissan Leaf is 3500 lbs and it's battery weighs 480 lbs. 
The newly hatched Tesla model three curb weight is 3549 lbs...can't find the battery weight but it's allegedly 30% less than the S model 1200 lbs.

A step in the right direction but still double the weight of my late 60's Corolla .  Curb weights of new Corollas are now up from 1500 (1968) to 2850 (2018) lbs, engine from 50 to 140 hp. 






glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #177 on: April 21, 2018, 09:18:26 AM »

Tesla has been making a new size Cell. Currently they use 18650's, Laptop cells. The new ones are larger and If I remember right, a Higher voltage that is more in line with 12 V architecture.
The new Cells are supposed to be the most efficient size for packaging and energy density. They may be what's going into the model 3 and giving them some weight and Volume savings or allowing a greater capacity in the same volume.

Some of the Teslas are offered with different battery packs for longer range.  I don't know if they do one but an accessory pack may be an advantage for long trips but then the cost would probably make it prohibititive for occasional use.

Now, If you could have that pack plugged into your power wall at home and then put it in the car to give you more range when you are away, THAT would be something worthwhile!

It's funny how many people on the net talk about covering electric cars with solar cells to charge them up when they are parked or even give power when going along without realising a larger than normal set of panels on a home roof would take about a week to charge up a high capacity battery like a Tesla has.  Even a small electric car is going to take days in good clear summer sun.

LowGear

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #178 on: April 21, 2018, 07:48:52 PM »
As a Elon fan I must admit I'm always surprised about how big the S and X unit are.  I too am tired of the "My zero to 60 number is better than yours."  However there is hope.  I like the new(ish) three wheel units that are just coming out.  Bringing into consideration the way cars are actually used VS the dreams of middle aged adolescents is a big step in the right direction.

https://www.arcimoto.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gei5LgVwV0E&t=5s

We all know these are niche cars but a refreshing direction for transportation to head.  The arcimoto would really work in Hawaii.  The Mecanica Solo might be more suited for the temporate zones.  And then there's this one that is a bit closer to the big peepee syndrome but would be a great way to commute to work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMWveqqMUY0 

and the Buck Rogers anwer to Edison 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTvhkRn_R9U

Food for thought.
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BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #179 on: April 21, 2018, 08:32:05 PM »
Interesting links Casey, thanks.  By some miracle we're back on topic.

The Edison 2 very light car seems by far and away the most well thought out design.  Good mileage at higher speed is highly dependent on air drag/aerodynamics.  So unless it is to be a city car at low speeds, it must be addressed. The emphasis on light weight helps everywhere else.  Their design team are all well seasoned engineers with serious experience in their respective areas.  Very impressive work. 

edison2.com