Author Topic: The future of electric Vehicles.  (Read 11384 times)

glort

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The future of electric Vehicles.
« on: March 14, 2018, 12:03:44 PM »

Long rant, make coffee and come back or skip to next post now....

If you are remotely interested in Vehicles, or even if you are not, you can't look at any form of media now without having something glossy and hyped rammed down your throat about electric Vehicles. The most sedate it gets is the never ending " Banning of IC cars by 20xx in whichever" place or that auto makers are working feverishly to bring out 100 new models in teh next 5 years..... Which coincidently, is an actual scale widely flung around.

We know there is now the technology for cars to cover decent distances, to recharge in a -reasonable- time frame and that many of the past objections are gone.  Today our " green" party, the biggest pack of Idiot ratbags Imaginable ( And yes, I must own up to voting for them once about 25 years ago) called for a ban of all IC car sales in OZ by 2030.

And therein lies the root of my face palm and urge to go beat my head on a brick wall.

These same whining morons are already responsible for STATE wide blackouts due to the blowing up of coal fired power stations.
To stop a grid meltdown, the gubbermint went and put in a stack of diesel generators that consume 40,000L of Diesel an HOUR! That is one standard semi tanker load.  per HOUR!
Yeah! that's doing wonders for the environment right?  ::)

The whole EV thing is a complex one but my biggest concern and where I see the real handbrake is feeding all these clean wonderful cars with power.
 I think it's far from the simple thing of generation growing to meet the demand that many Ev proponents make out.  I also think it's a lot more than a localised consideration. There are few countries with abundant power supply and fewer still that have or will go near being renewable.  Most of the western world does not have a lot of power to spare and even in this day and age, it only takes one hot day to have rolling blackouts because the grid can't keep up. Here it's getting much worse thanks to all the save the planet types and their " Renewable" generation that is unstable, un predictable and very undependable.

The demand on the grid worldwide is growing all the time.  The green washed thing of coal is evil and must be stopped now reduces capacity and stability.  On one hand you have the green washed trying to reduce generation at the same time promoting the increase of consumption. Nothing wrong with that hypocricy, much! It takes a LOT of renewable power to equal one fossil fired station and the renewable is far from stable and dependable.

In a decade, the demand on grids around the world will have grown through all the things that are reliant on it now. Population, business, industry, quality of life improvements Like AC, large TV's and so it goes.
I don't know where to find the info of demand Vs generation relationships but it sure would be interesting to see the projections.

I don't know about other parts of the world but from what I'm reading, The take up of PV is no where near like it is here in oz hich is understandable given the weather in a lot of the northern Hemisphere.  I think rather than have the big blattery, the money should have been spent on putting more localised power where it is needed in the form of solar. Unfortunately the green obsessed and Crazy SA gubbermint is so hell bent on being able to make stupid claims, they do it at the cost of sound practices and stability of power for the state.

I really don't think most of the greenwashed / EV proponents have any idea of the amount of energy contained in liquid fuels, the size of any type of battery to store the same amount of energy as in an average fuel tank and I don't think they understand what that energy equates to in electrical generation terms.  Multiply that out be every car however many there are in your street let alone suburb and city, and the numbers become overwhelming.
Compare that to the amount of power a city generates now and one will get some perspective how mammoth a task this switch to electric really is.

Here's a real quick one....
My 4WD has a 100L tank. Yes, large by sedan standards but around here, a significant part of the local transport.
Diesel is about 10.7Kw of energy per litre. Let's call it 10 for ease of my poor mathematics.
100L in my tank x10 Kwh = 1000 KWh.

My 6.5 Kw solar system is averaging with weather about 25KwH a day atm being summer here. 5kwh is the standard for new systems being installed now but a lot larger than most older ones being 1.5-2 Kw.
If I put my 25kwh a day JUST into my vehicle, Thats going to take 40 days on average to give me ONE tankfull of Diesel. And now of course I must dra everything from the grid for household needs.
Lets halve that as a closer to average sort of tank capacity.  500KWH, 20 days at 25KWH per day.

Look at it another way.  Average home here for a family of 4 my power bill says is about 30 KWH a day.  50L of fuel in the average family car, and few families have just one here, 500Kwh / 30 Kwh = 16 days average power use in that vehicle.
Most people I know fill up at least once a week. 2000Kwh month for the car,  30Kwh x 30 days = 900 KWH for the home.
Anyone getting the picture of the energy load we are talking about here?

That average family car electric needs is worth more than 2 average homes electric consumption per month. If they have ONE car. I l oked up the numbers,  2.28 for Oz with 35% of households owning 3 or more.
US, looks exactly the same, canada a bit less, 1,8 cars per family.

So in reality, the average home in these countries would have 4-5 times the demand on the grid for power for their ev's than they are using in their homes now.
At best, the number of houses in your street as far as power consumption goes just tripled. More likely, it just multiplied by a factor of at least 5.
In every street in every suburb in every city and town right across the country......

How many homes do you think will be able to have enough panels to charge their vehicles up in even a week even if they covered the whole block and used the panels as a roof?
When you break it down like this, you start to see the incredible change in the grid infrastructure that is going to be needed to replace  IC vehicles.
Sure it won't happen over night, it can't! If the the take up was too quick ( and ev sales are LESS than 1% overall atm) they would hit a tipping point where all the cars were taking the power and there was non left to run the factories trying to make the things!

How long before you think the grid where you live will be able to handle that 500% ++ increase in demand, and what do you think the price of power might be to pay for the infrastructure to supply it?
More over, is there even space to put the infrastructure in place?  Pretty sure no city is going to have the capacity to distribute 500% mo0re power on existing cabling and the question would then be, is there the space in the ground with everything else to put cables and distribution equipment in place 2with 5x the capacity of what is there now?

How big are the cables going to be on the power poles and how heavy? How expensive will they be with up rated substations, transformers and so it goes.

Of course then there is the thing that comes to mind for me with a personal ( repeated) experience.
My Father lives almost 400 KM away from me. The journey is basicaly up a highway for 2 hours, a 7 km crawl through the bypass of the next major city and then another 1hr, 20 min hop up the other side of the highway to his place. That highway goes another 600KM to the next major city.

In the middle of that 7 Km stretch there is a 2 petrol stations. The one opposite the McDonalds is the busiest and the Maccas can not be got near when its holiday time as it's the only thing on the highway till you get further up to when my father lives.
That service station is VERY busy with people filling up as it's the last fuel for about 2 hours. If you have come from where dad is which is the next major town and you are towing a boat or caravan, You are going to need a long range tank to make it with out a top up.

 EV's on average take an hour to recharge IF they are on a rapid charger. Many take much longer.   How long does it take one to fill their tank with petro fuel? 5, 10 Min?  I'd reckon there are about 20 pumps at that servo opposite Maccas.  that would mean that when the line is out onto the road, each pump should service a minimum of 6 cars per hour. 20 pumps, 120 cars per hour.

Now, if each car even takes 30 min to recharge bearing in mind they would have nearly all just driven 150KM and have another 200 to go to the next place that would have a charging station, those 20 outlets are only going to service 40 Vehicles. in other words, you are going to have to put in at least 3 times the charging stations as fuel pumps. And unless they are all super charger type setups, the far more likley charging time is 2-3 Hours.

Geez, won't that be fun turning your 4 hour trip into a 7 hour one and trying to amuse the kids at maccas for 3 hours. I can see a real possibility of the accident rate going up on that section of road due to fatigue and distraction by the extended journey time.
But wait, there's More....!

As its a big selling point to have " destination Charging" with tesla at least, put a charging station in every parking bay at maccas so people can go in , grab a bite and a coffee and have a break while their car charges up. Tesla luckily it's only an hour.
 I looked up that a tesla can suck down 120Kw at a charging station.  On 240V that's nearly 500A. Yes, the voltage is actually a bit higher but that's irrelevant.  it's the watts that count. A normal house connection here is 80A and it would be extremely rare to find a single place sucking down that much power.
Let say there are 20 Charging stations in the carpark at maccas, that's 2.4 Mw of power just at that site . Across the road in the servo, there is at least another 20 and another 2.4Mw. How many other sites will that segment of the grid be feeding and further back, how many will be in the area supplied buy the local sub and power stations? Those 2 sites are across the road from one another so how big are the cables going to have to be just to feed 2 places?
That sort of power wouldn't be used by factories of that size so to have 2 small sites  pulling that down.... Then of course there are the other food joints about 500M up the road that also fill up at holiday time and would no doubt also have charging in order to get business in the door be the power paid for or not.  Can't see how they could afford to give it away on that scale unless the price of a Burger in the restaurant became 25 bucks.

Another thing that's not mentioned with charging time with teslas is they quote an hour. That's true if the thing isn't completely flat which we'll assume it is not and people leave a small reserve as one normally would with a petrol car.  You go to the supercharger and plug in next to the guy that just pulled up. The charger is current limited and you are only going to get 30Kw being the second car to plug in rather than the 120Kw which is the max charge rate. Because the guy beside was before you but still needs to do a full charge more or less, your recharge could take 2 hours not 1.  And that is if it's getting full power in the first place and the site isn't limited on it's max current draw because of all the other stations and the wiring at the power pole.

To me the whole EV thing is one big distraction and bundle of BS.

Given the western world still pulls the majority of it's power from fossil fuel going electric is really only moving the emissions from one place of generation to another anyhow.

broncodriver99

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2018, 01:32:44 PM »
Given the western world still pulls the majority of it's power from fossil fuel going electric is really only moving the emissions from one place of generation to another anyhow.

Add to that the efficiency of the grid with generation and transmission losses and electric cars end up being ~about as efficient as a IC fueled vehicle.

AdeV

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2018, 10:35:42 PM »
That is a hell of a rant! Unfortunately time pressures mean I won't have chance to read it before the weekend, but if I may ask a question?

Why is the interior of Australia (which, as I recall, is pretty bloody big - even by Australian standards - and mostly unpopulated) not being carpeted with PV panels? Surely for a country that gets more sunshine than it can possibly need, solar PV is the obvious answer? Or, even, molten salt thermal solar, which has the advantage that if enough heat energy can be banked during the day, can continue to generate power even in the hours of darkness, addressing the biggest problem solar PV suffers from?

Glort - apologies if you already addressed this... I WILL read all of your post, but not right now...
Cheers!
Ade.
--------------
1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

ajaffa1

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2018, 10:56:52 PM »
I wonder how much fossil fuel is used to mine the lithium for these batteries. The ore has to be extracted, refined. shipped to China for manufacture into cells. It`s then shipped to tesla for assembly, from there the finished product is distributed all around the world. The logistics must be horrendous.

What is going to happen to all the outback farmers that are not grid connected. how are they supposed to charge their vehicles? Does anyone make an electric tractor or combined harvester, how long would one of those take to charge?

What are the government going to do without the tax revenues from oil? I guess they`ll have to tax electricity, that should make the greens popular.

I have to conclude that once again there is no joined up thinking by the government, when are they going to start listening to people who know what they are doing, rather than following the dogma of the politically correct incompetent?

Mad as a cut snake,
Bob

glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2018, 11:27:58 PM »
Hi Ade,

I have been writing statements for a couple of days so I was on a roll with this one and I could take my mind of things with so it got away on me.

Simple answer to your Question, I don't know why there isn't more solar here specifically but I do know from what I have researched, Desserts are not good places for solar farms.

First you have the heat killing panel efficiency. Also upsets transformers and other equipment further down the line and you have wide temp fluctuations. Next you have problems with cleaning and the dust and sand that gets on them again reducing output.   Another problem is vegetation.  Minute you shade something in the dessert the moisture content below it goes up and plants start growing, often right up and over the panel in this case.  That has been a problem in other places where they put solar farms is desserts. There is then the problem/ expense/ inefficacy of transmission of  the power back to the citys and the main centres are thousands of KM away from the red centre and dessert areas.
 Heiliostats suffer much the same problems for those setups.
No doubt rather than learn from this, we'll eventually get round to making the same mistake.

That is not to say we Don't have solar farms, they just finished a 20Mw one in WA that sits beside and 80Mw wind farm and the are starting on a 112Mw solar farm In Mildura. That is known as the Riverina area and is a cool, moist place that is a key farming area along the banks of the Murray river.  Long way from any dessert down there.
There are a heap of other solar farms slated atm as part of a nationwide initiative to get out green power levels up. We shouldn't be lacking for too much power during the day eventually but the price  remains to be seen despite the predictable Cheap power promise they tout to get these things approved which soon disappears once they are built.... usually as assets for private companies with gubbermint money.  Big battery anyone?

The bottom line is, renewbles here are all a great crock.  Australia is built on Coal and even our head green washed scientist said some time back, If Australia's Co2 emissions were nothing,  " It would have absolutely Zero impact on the global environment" .  There are new clean Coal technologies that are in place and working OS and would be logical to build here.
Still, looking politically correct is apparently worth spending billions on even if it really makes no difference and is a total farce that creates a heap of problems in doing it....... And because of it's limitations you have to put in diesel generators that burn a TANKER load of diesel an HOUR.

glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2018, 11:39:16 PM »
Given the western world still pulls the majority of it's power from fossil fuel going electric is really only moving the emissions from one place of generation to another anyhow.

Add to that the efficiency of the grid with generation and transmission losses and electric cars end up being ~about as efficient as a IC fueled vehicle.

A good point.
I have no real idea what transmission losses are. I have seen them quoted as what I think would be unlikly low to what I would think was terribly high but not beyond possibility.
I get the feeling the losses are significant however.

This is yet another problem I have with the whole green/ environmental thing and another example of how it comes back to money first and foremost.
For the greater population of Oz, that on the eastern seaboard, You are only allowed to have a max 5KW inverter installed.  The BS excuse is they don't want the grid overloaded with power being backfed.  I won't even go into the laughable holes in that insulting excuse  but clearly the reason is they don't want to lose revenue.  That's why here the power you make you get .6 C KWH for and the power you buy is .30 cents and way on up.

If one were actually interested in the environment and not just making money using it as an excuse, it's pretty obvious with anything, the closer you cn produce it to where you use it, the better and more efficient it is.  Producing it on your roof and using it in the home is as good as it gets but If you are producing too much for your needs and some of it goes next door or to the shopping centre a few KM away, it sure is going to still be magnitudes more efficient than it coming from 500KM away or thousands as the case frequently is.

If they were genuine about being green rather than making profit, they would be encouraging everyone to put in all the solar they could so the power that had to be brought in from power stations  and things like solar farms could be reduced as would be the losses.

But once again, the environment is just a cash cow excuse for big biz and gubbermints to treat the people like idiots and squeeze every buck they can out of them for their own good, not the planets. 

ajaffa1

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2018, 11:43:16 PM »
A tanker full of diesel an hour? How big is the injector pump on one of these things?

glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2018, 11:51:20 PM »

What are the government going to do without the tax revenues from oil? I guess they`ll have to tax electricity, that should make the greens popular.

Mad as a cut snake,
Bob

As Usual Grumpy, mad Bob, you make excellent points.
I hadn't even thought of the revenue from fuel excise aspect.  I would think thats a pretty easy one though.

In some places, NZ being one, they pay for the mileage the car drives, in advance. You buy say 5000KM of road tax credits and top up as you need.
Trucks have odometers fitted in the wheel hubs and first thing that happens when you get pulled over after someone says  " Sweet as Bro!"  is they check this to make sure the tax is paid up and you are in credit. If it's not, the fines are huge and more than sufficient to be a real deterrent.
These days they could probably run something off the car computer through the OBDII port pretty easily or you would give the mileage now and pay to some future distance.

I don't know about now but I know the Lithium for early Hybrids was a nightmare. It crss crossed the world being refined and being built into battery backs before crossing the world again to be put into the vehicles some of which were sent back to where the process began. The amount of toxis wastes from the process was also horrendous.  It may be better now, it may not but there is no way in hell the industry will tell you it's nothing but sunshine, unicorns and rainbows and you could feed your newborn on the waste from the process...... no matter how deadly it really may be.

It seems lithium is a limited material so the stupidity of basing a world wide and growing technology on that can only come back to the same old pathetic thing..... Greed.

ajaffa1

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2018, 11:59:28 PM »
Perhaps someone could explain to me why the greens in the government allowed the closure of the Nymboida hydro electric power station. The water that used to feed it was redirected to Coffs Harbour so they can water their bloody gardens. The international slalom course at the canoe centre relied on the hydro outflow as did all the farmers along the creek.
Nice work by the greedy and incompetent.

glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2018, 12:10:10 AM »
A tanker full of diesel an hour? How big is the injector pump on one of these things?

Not just one, there is a whole bunch of the things!
they are about semi trailer size themselves and installed as a bank all working together.

Went to find and article on it and looks like I got it wrong!  :-[  I can't link as it's behind a paywall but heres the headline:

Weatherill's 80,000 litres of diesel an hour solution to SA energy crisis

So I was wrong, it's twice as bad as I said.
That's 2 tanker trucks per hour.  The mind just boggles.

For our OS friends, Wetheriil is the green obsessed moronic zealot state premier that has been responsible for that state paying one of the highest power prices in the world while also at the same time one of the most unreliable with 2 STATE wide blackouts to date. There are  rolling blackouts around the state every day because there simply is not enough (renewable) power to go round.  He loves to boast that the state ran 100% on renewable power today.
Well the 10% of homes and businesses that HAD power might of, the rest were SOL and sitting on their arses because they couldn't work or do anything else. That's why business and industry is leaving the place like a sinking ship. When you can't be sure the lights are going to come on when you get it of a morning, you tend to look for other places that are a bit more !st world like to run your operation's from with all the modern luxuries..... Like electricity for instance!  ;D

He is also one of the idiots calling for all cars to be electric by 2030. When they are buring diesel at that rate to keep the lights on in the place, you really have to wonder how moronic and hypocritical they have to be to talk about multiplying the electric load by a minimum of 500% in just 10 years time.
Maybe the green washed Pollies like him could start taking the save the planet lead and ride bikes to Parliament.... In the 45o c  Adelaide Summers, pouring rain, Freezing Canberra cold.....  yeah, you can see them putting their actions where their mouth is can't you?   ::)

I think this guy is a great contender for stars with outstanding achievements in your " Idiots in charge " thread Bob.

glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2018, 12:12:49 AM »
Perhaps someone could explain to me why the greens in the government allowed the closure of the Nymboida hydro electric power station. The water that used to feed it was redirected to Coffs Harbour so they can water their bloody gardens. The international slalom course at the canoe centre relied on the hydro outflow as did all the farmers along the creek.
Nice work by the greedy and incompetent.

I don't know anything about that Bob but I think you answered your own question.
" by the greedy and incompetent.".

Answers most questions of this type actually!

ajaffa1

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2018, 04:30:06 AM »
Tell me if I`ve understood this properly. The a South Australian government can`t keep the lights on despite burning 80,000ltrs of diesel an hour and they want us to trade in our IC engine vehicles and use electric ones instead.
The idiot in charge of this doesn`t deserve an award he needs a lobotomy.

Is there some sort of advanced stupidity course that politicians have to take before they can stand for office? I bet this guy aced it, a masters degree in BS and advanced incompetence.

glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2018, 04:59:52 AM »

One of the major things wrong with the whole green, save the planet thing, apart from the fact it's a money making scam,  is that the deciples of the religion want to push it at each and every opportunity with NO thought or regard for the consequences.

So much of this green  rush of blood to the head actualy results in more energy being used, more resources being squandered, more emissions and more waste being generated that the method they are all hysterical busting a gut to get rid of.

They want change for changes sake rather than taking the basic and fundamental question of merely asking, " What's going to give the best result?"
Surprised you green washed zealots, sometimes, frequently in fact, doing things the way they are done right no is the best you are going to get.  No, not perfect, not " green" BUT, result in the best outcome for the cause you are trying to push.

Real easy everyday example, Ethanol fuel.
IF the very fact that the whole process of growing the crops and transporting the product to market relies HEAVILY on Diesel fuel for the fertiliser, fuel, lubrication for the machinery isn't enough to make you question the whole thing, the fact it at BEST merely substitutes the fuel that was used in it's production should be enough to wake anyone with a brain and without a blind preoccupation up to realise.

Some sources say that the fuel used in production is the same as the fuel yeilded. other sources say it's less and thats what I believe. Strongly. |
Simple energy conversion. Every time you change state, there is a loss.
But lets play devil advocate and say it's 1:1.  This now means the fuel amount may be the same but the EMISSIONS are DOUBLE.

Let say you started with 1000L of oil. You put that into fertiliser, fuel for machinery for production, transport etc. We won't even get into the non liquid fuel energy consumption.
You produced 1000L of fuel which you now sell and that powers Vehicles. You basicaly burnt Fuel TWICE producing more C02 and a lot of other things as well.  Had you taken that 1000L of oil you started with and put it to powering vehicles in the first place, it would have only been burnt once.

I'm thick as 2 planks but even I worked this out all on my own and I am amazed I have never seen the point made elsewhere but it pretty logical and obvious to me.  Every time you burn something you create emissions. Using  oil to create a product that is supposedly cleaner than oil which consumes it at the same rate but doubles the emissions in the name of saving the environment a beyond comprehension in it's bone headed stupidity!

Even if as some want to claim, the net yeild is greater, lets say 50%. You still created 50% More emissions than if you just put the fossil fuel straight in the tanks of the vehicles that consume it for transportation and other uses.  The only way to make a benifit would be to produce 2001L of fuel from the 1000 you started off with and NO ONE , even the green fruitcakes has ever come near that claim.

And as I touched on, this is only liquid fuels, they Rarely ever acknowledge the electric power used in making " Renewable" Fuel.

If you want to make the emissions from vehicles / ic engines as low as possible, just stick to burning fossil fuels as we do now because the fact is, at this time it's the best soloution for the job .


ajaffa1

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2018, 05:33:57 AM »
The problem is that whatever fuel you are burning there is only a finite amount available once you have burned it it`s gone for good. We are burning it at an ever accelerating pace. You don`t need to be a rocket scientist to work out that at some time, probably in our lifetime, there won`t be any left. can you imagine what that would do to the global economy? Don`t forget that fuel is only a very small percentage of the crude oil we use every day. Lubricants, paints, solvents, plastics and fertilisers are all oil based. With out that oil the world will quite literally grind to a halt.

As you point out all attempts to grow a crop for fuel have been an extravagant waste. I read one report that claimed the entire land mass of the United States would need to be turned over to ethanol production to service the demand for motor vehicle fuel. What are the people going to eat?

I believe that there is some useful research being done into using solar energy to convert CO2 back into hydrocarbons that can then be burned. The process is very energy consuming but doable. Perhaps a new purpose for all your solar panels. I`ll see if I can find the link and post it.
Bob


glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2018, 05:52:57 AM »
I went out furniture shopping with the Mrs earlier ( there's a great way to burn $12K in an hour!)  and in an irony of the world trying to tell me something, there was a Tesla Model 3 parked Right beside us.

Not too many of them around here, might see one on the road every few weeks but I have never been up close to one before. This was the P100D and I was surprised what a big thing it was.  The rear gullwing door looked impressive but worrying at the same time.
Don't think the woman that came back to it was all that impressed with me looking at it as there was s distinct tone of sarcasm in her voice when she " Asked " Do You like it?"  I gave a diplomatic answer that of knew of the things but had never seen one up close before.
The rug rat with her was screaming and she seemed the snobby, over botoxed type so I got in my planet destroying car and went to blow some more cash on light fittings..... which I got out of on the promise I'll go down the produce store, buy a galvanised bucket and some fitting and turn that into the lampshade she loved..... and save about 300 bucks in the process!

I don't know if I would like a tesla or not. I sure wouldn't mind something with the acceleration of one of those things  but to be honest, one would have to own one for a while or at least spend some time with it.  I could charge the thing from my panels for -my- use which isn't a lot and it would be home most of the day. Normally for the Mrs to take it to work, would mean I'd be paying for power when she got home.
As for the price of the things, I could actually afford one but I'd not be that stupid to blow a big chunk of my savings on any car. If someone wanted to give me one, yep, for sure be in that!  I might bag the company and the potential problems with changing the fleet from IC to electric but I don't have any experience with the vehicles themselves.


There is another bit of BS I have discovered about electric vehicles..... they are NOT necessarily cheaper to fuel than an IC car at all.
I took Tesla as the example because I can't think of any other electric cars here and found they skew the fuel cost by talking about the cost of a tank full of fuel, not on a per mile/ Km basis.

Yes, your tesla will cost less to " refuel" than a similar IC vehicle but the devil in the details is the Mileage you can travel for that cost.
If you look at say the price of driving 1000 KM/ miles in a tesla as against that of even a large vehicle here, the tesla is MORE expensive that the petrol and especial Diesel vehicle.

I ran the numbers for here in oz and the US and they worked out the same, Tesla is more expensive to run rather than cheaper for the same distance.

And tesla spin doctor that too.
Supercharging  at the tesla outlets is no longer free.  Tesla However give 400KWh of power with every new car sold.
They have charts on their site that show the tesla is cheaper to run than an IC car but in the micro print, it  tells you the comparisons were made taking the free 400Kwh into account.

Spose I should start selling 3 ton Pickups for Half a million bux and throw in the first 100K miles of free fuel and then advertise they cost nothing in fuel to run and they have the best fuel economy of any vehicle in the world.  :laugh: