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Author Topic: Lister CS setup to make it`s own fuel  (Read 1586 times)

ajaffa1

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Lister CS setup to make it`s own fuel
« on: February 20, 2018, 11:11:13 PM »
Hey Guys, been too unwell to do much so I`ve been doing a lot of reading and thinking about what sort of shed I should build to house my CS when it is done. I mentioned before that I have an underground exhaust coupled to my ST2, I would like to exhaust the CS into the same system. I think a couple of brass gate valves could be used to isolate the two engines so I don`t get a problem with exhaust fumes/condensation getting into the non running engine.

Sharing the underground exhaust system pretty much determines where the new shed will be so the first thing will be to pour the concrete slab. I`ve been looking at Glorts` keep it simple WVO set up and I`m considering using the heat generated by the CS to heat a barrel of WVO to dry it. Obviously WVO would not be a suitable coolant for the CS so I am considering using a swimming pool heat exchanger(see Pic). This would require a coolant pump on the CS as it would not thermo syphon with a heat exchanger. I am thinking of a simple coolant system with a header tank, open to atmosphere. This will contain water and an inhibitor to prevent corrosion, frost is not an issue where I live.

The primary use for the CS will be to drive a 3 phase generator head for a lathe and milling machine. Probably a 3KW motor wired to generate. I should be able to use one leg off this to drive  a drying fan and pump to dry the WVO as per Glorts` video on YouTube.

Dry oil can then be pumped into the fuel tank for the CS and also the ST2.

Thoughts please

Bob

glort

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Re: Lister CS setup to make it`s own fuel
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2018, 01:09:01 AM »


I have thought about this a bit over the years and saw one guy in the states who did a self powered Bio setup on the veg oil forums about 10 years ago.

I can't see why running veg as a coolant would have anything wrong with it.

The latent energy content of oil is a lot lower than water but listers are easy to over cool anyway and have more than enough cooling capacity and port size to make up for that.  The oil certainly wont corrode anything in the engine, It won't gunk the cooling passages up if it's reasonably clean like putting it through a bit of cloth or a good settling so I can't see any reason one shouldn't run oil through the engine as a coolant.

The way I think to do it would be to run the oil through the engine to heat it then into a pump which not only circulated the oil through the engine but then squirted it into the drum for Drying.  This action alone would probably keep the oil cool enough to run the engine. In any case, it's going to take a long time to get a 44 up to 100o and unlike water, no reason you can't take it higher other than the temp the lube oil will start to break down which is something like 150o from memory. It's much higher than you can get out of water as oil in engines often runs hotter thanks to being squirted up under pistons etc.

The beauty of this would be you could be processing oil while you made power. The only thing you'd have to do for the processing side would be run a small pump and I'd go for a belt driven one rather than an electric.  Those marine Type impeller or gear pumps would be ideal. Electric in this application I think is inefficient. You have the mechanical power being lost in the belt , in electrical generation, more losses in the motor in the pump where as with a belt drive you have lesser belt losses then straight to the pumping.

This is the sort of thing you would look for:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Jabsco-1-1-2-clutch-pump-Sydney/132509290987?hash=item1eda2b51eb:g:~~IAAOSwrsladkIc

I have some of these Jabsco's and they move a shipload of fluid even in the 1" and 3/4" sizes I have. 
They have a flexible impeller inside which you can get in Viton? I think it is which is oil resistant. I have used the standard Neoprene? impeller and had no problem with that.
There are also brass gear pumps you could use.

I use a 10" household water filter  for the cleaning in either 1UM or 5 um, whatever I can get at the time and this could either be put on a bleed off like I have on the pressure side of the pump or maybe in the intake side although your probably strangle the pump like that because they are made for water flow not 1" of water.

A setup like this could be very neat and compact and entirely practical.  Save on the cost of the HE as well.  If you wanted more heat you could just braze an exhaust pipe up through the bottom of the holding drum and up and off to the side to add a bit more heat to the oil. For more heat still Just get one/ a couple of those high powered Coffee cup travel heater things off flea  bay and run them off a leg of the genny.


Are you planning to run the Induction motor direct to the lathe and use it as the generator or are you thinking of it more as rotary phase converter and use the Ac as well as the motor?  You can run the Motor from a single phase supply and tap one leg of that to the lathe and get the other 2 legs from the AC as well eliminating the need for the external generator and do it all off AC.
Better still, you can just add some caps to your 3 phase on the lathe and run it from the single phase supply.

That would free up the lister for something else if you wanted but if not, this sounds like a great use for it!


BruceM

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Re: Lister CS setup to make it`s own fuel
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2018, 01:58:07 AM »
+1 for oil cooling. There's a long history of oil being used for primary engine cooling-  including the Rumely oil pull tractor in the US which also used the engine exhaust induced air cooling of the oil filled radiator. 

The Rumely had a single cylinder kerosene engine with a 10 inch bore and 12 inch stroke.  That's a thumper. Good article and a video link with audio worth watching and hearing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumely_Oil_Pull 

No fan, the exhaust stack is pulling fresh air in through the radiator.  I stole that induced draft method for my CS and found only a tiny area of radiator is needed.  Oil has much less heat carrying capacity than water but would certainly be more than adequate for our small engines.  The higher operating temperature allowed would be a nice plus for efficiency and less fuel related deposits.


ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS setup to make it`s own fuel
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2018, 06:05:46 AM »
Thanks guys, food for thought. If I could safely use strained WVO as the coolant I could raise the coolant drum and use thermo syphoning rather than a coolant pump. Would heated oil thermo syphon? I was considering fitting a thermostat in the coolant system to bring the engine up to temperature quicker. Anyone know if a standard thermostat would operate in WVO? They generally have a small hole in them which allows a trickle of cooling fluid to pass until heat causes them to open fully, perhaps this hole would need to be opened up a bit.

I did think about using the exhaust heat, much as suggested by Glort but I am thinking of using it instead to heat the sump oil to drive off the condensation which occurs during short runs. I`ll probably have to add a secondary sump to get it to work right.

Love the idea of a geared pump for aeration/drying I`m thinking automotive oil pump, I might even be able to drive it off one end of the camshaft with a little modification.

That Rumely is a work of art, shame the operator has to nearly kill himself to start the bugger. 10" piston with a 12" stroke sounds dangerous, wonder what the compression ratio would be to run it on Kero? I guess you would probably have to start it on something more volatile.

mike90045

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Re: Lister CS setup to make it`s own fuel
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2018, 06:13:24 AM »
...
I can't see why running veg as a coolant would have anything wrong with it. ...

Unless you get a leaky head gasket, and coolant (oil / fuel) gets into the cylinder and you get a runaway engine

i guess most of the time, pressure will leak out of the cylinder, but I've seen engines ruined by coolant getting into the cylinder

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS setup to make it`s own fuel
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2018, 06:30:45 AM »
Thanks Mike, I hadn`t thought about that. I wasn`t thinking of having a pressurised cooling system so there is no reason to suspect that the head gasket would leak. I suspect that it wouldn`t happen in a catastrophic fashion but more likely a gradual deterioration which would be apparent as smoke in the exhaust fumes. I could modify the air intake to include a gate valve to shut off the air supply.

glort

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Re: Lister CS setup to make it`s own fuel
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2018, 07:00:41 AM »
Oil would thermo Syphon, The principle is the same no matter what the working medium be it fluid or gas.

Thermostat would work the same. Again the working fluid is irrelevant to the way it operates. I'm not sure about thermos myself in this application. Seems like something else that can go wrong and has more potential for damage than what it prevents. just my thoughts though.

having operated my CS just on thermosyphon I don't see the need for a thermostat. The Thermosyphon principal is pretty much self regulating. Just make sure you have plenty of height between the top of where the fluid is going to and the inlet is level and a little above the bottom of you tank and it will be fine.

As for heating the sump oil, if you are going to be processing WVO you will want the engine running around an hour or so. Should be enough time to get the sump up to temp. Personally I wouldn't worry, just change the oil regularly and let it run longer.  :0) if the thing is driving a 3 phase generator, it should work hard enough to get it up to a good temp in short order.

As for the head gasket, I really can't seeing that being a danger worth worrying about.
The system will be non pressurised, if there is a leak the Cylinder will be under very minimal vacuum or very significant pressure.
The combustion is more likely to burn seeping oil to a crust, force that back into the compromised area and cause any weep/ leak to seal than allow it to pass pressurised oil into  the engine.  I cannot see any cause for a catastrophic rupture of the head gasket wither and if that did happen, Wether you are running water or oil,  the engine is still going to end up in a very bad way.

One thing with oil, If you are going to use it as coolant and Fuel, You can't leave the oil exposed to air. It's hygroscopic.  If you dry the oil today and walk away for a few days and come back, it will have pulled air out of atmosphere and not be completely dry again. It won't have any water droplets but it will have dissolved water. You will need to cover the oil tank or better still Drain the processed oil into drums you can seal and refil the cooling system with unprocessed oil till such time as you give it a good enough run to dry and filter it.

A hot pan test will show you wether the oil is dry or give an indication of how wet it is.
Thing is don't think because you gave the engine a good hard run last week and got the oil dry it's still going to be that way a week later. If you get any rain  in between, it will be plenty wet again.

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS setup to make it`s own fuel
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2018, 09:08:05 AM »
Tranks Glort, I was thinking of using a floating rubber bung out of a Davey pump on top of my oil barrel, should keep the moisture out as long as I don

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS setup to make it`s own fuel
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2018, 09:13:00 AM »
Sorry Glort don`t know what happened there, some how managed to post half way through typing. What I was trying to say was that a flap valve on top of my oil tank should prevent ingress of water provided it doesn`t cause a vacuum and crush the tank as it cools. Maybe a pressure relief valve would be the go.

glort

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Re: Lister CS setup to make it`s own fuel
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2018, 09:31:51 AM »
Depending on the time you want to leave the oil, all you would need would be a lid with say a 1mm hole in it or something that covered but wasn't completely airtight.  This would allow for pressure/ temp changes but not allow enough air to contact the oil for it to pull enough moisture out to be significant.  What you want to prevent is volumes of air passing over and contacting the oil it can pull moisture out of . A bit of difference in head space which might be half a litre in and out in a day is not going to matter for probably a couple of weeks unless it's been raining the whole time.

Once you had the oil dry though, I'd be decanting it into drums. I use the 25L opaque plastic drums  you can get from behind restaurants that have had disinfectant, floor cleaner, detergent etc in them. They are very good drums and in 15 years I have yet to have a single one leak from the lid no matter how much they were thrown around.  Best free value out there I reckon.

Once you drain the dried oil, you can refill with oil that hasn't been processed yet.  Even if you don't dry it the next run of the engine, You'll have still made passes through the filter which is a plus anyway.

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS setup to make it`s own fuel
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2018, 10:59:40 AM »
Hey Glort, I had a mate years ago, who managed a glass bottle plant that supplied bottles for just about everything. He told me that most of these companies charge more for the bottles than the do for the contents, so I`m not at all surprised at the quality of some plastic containers, dumping them in landfill should be against the law. Every time I go to the supermarket I get $100 dollars of groceries in $50 dollars of packaging that I then have to pay the local council to take away and recycle/bury.

The recent embargo on China importing our waste products is going to leave a mountain of useful containers that no one wants, The idea of recycling these as storage for recycled fuel is a no brainer, no doubt some jobs worth will try to outlaw it on the grounds that it is a health hazard or a danger to the environment.

Looking forward to the revolution/collapse of global economy, then we can string up all of these over paid useless buggers and get on with life.

glort

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Re: Lister CS setup to make it`s own fuel
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2018, 11:47:10 AM »

If there was someone I would string up, tar and feather, give them a fair trial and then put them in front of a firing squad, it would be the guy whom invented and all those that use that blister warp garbage.

I just won't buy stuff in that shit if I can possibly avoid it.
Removing the contents  is walking a tightrope between cutting your hand off and destroying the product before it's in your hand! Then for good measure, often they put the plastic inside a thick cardboard backing/ edging just to make the process of removing the item that much more frustrating, time consuming and dangerous.  I hate the shit with a vengence!

I bought something last year that turned out to be no good and took it back. The bimbo behind the counter tried to tell me they couldn't take it back because it had to be in original undamaged packaging. I said it's faulty, makes no difference. She repeated had to be in undamaged packaging.
 I thought she was joking at first. When it became clear she wasn't, I VERY calmly asked her to please call her manager or the police because if they didn't take it back because of the infernal packaging that by very design, had to be damaged to remove the contents, they were going to need the riot squad.  Manager came, Girl obviously relayed what I said by the smirk on his face, walked over and said this was dead on arrival? I said yes. He said no problem, give the man a refund or exchange.
I took the exchange and then asked the bimbo if she would mind removing it from the packaging for me and not damage it in case I had to return this one too.  Funnily enough, she declined despite my insistence.

Speaking of recycling packaging, I have used those IBC's for years for bulk oil storage and settling. They are great. Picked up a load of them before Christmas at a local factory whom had them stacked high out the front.  I got some LED Flood Lights, Found some Coloured plastic A4 size folders that were transparent and put the lights behind the IBC's with the coloured gells for my Daughters party.  The things looked awesome and were a great hit. made the place look like a funky bar or resort.  I was only half clever, I should have got more and stacked them 2-3 High with different colours. that would have been really good.
Ah well, next time.

Washed the things out and am now using them as water storage tanks along side the house. Copying the guy next doors Idea and going to put some lattice around them to make them more aesthetic looking. One was punctured so I cut a hole in the side and am going to use that for growing lettuce hydroponic style.  The steel cage I gave to a mate who uses them to put his fire wood in. Can move it easily with his fork lift and lets the air get to the wood on all side to help with drying.  One extra tank I gave to the guy next door who wants to put a couple on his new garden shed. 

Could use a couple more now but the place hasn't had any out the front for a few weeks.

I also built a couple of rabbit cages out of the things a few years back.  One is just the cage I cut a panel out the top and hinged it so my short arse wife can lean over enough to pick up the food and water bowls.  The other I got 2 cages, cut one side out of each and welded the two together to form one larger cage. Put the required door at the tp for the vertically challenged as well.  Also put come corrugated Iron around one end and trimmed it neat with the Plasma cutter and put a roof on.  No bottom, we just move it round where the grass is longest.
The inside tank I cut part of a side out, got some wire mesh, hinged that as a door and that is their indoor cage.  Built  a couple the same for the Nutty Cat woman round the corner to house her strays waiting to be re homed.

I have seen hot tubs and other things made from them as well. Mrs wants me to cut one down and use it as a pond liner out the front. I have got a black one up the back for the job which I think will look better than a white one but a bit reluctant to chop it up as black ones are hard to find. No idea what I'd use it otherwise for, Solar heated water tank??

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS setup to make it`s own fuel
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2018, 12:17:34 PM »
hey Glort what`s with the fair trial BS? just string them up. They haven`t given any of us a fair go why should we give them one?

With you on all sorts of packaging, spent sometime fitting kitchens, I would spend a whole day unpacking s*it and fill a whole skip with polystyrene and cardboard before I got to fit anything.

I did see a post about dissolving polystyrene in biodiesel and using as fuel, not sure how good that would be for an engine or the environment but probably better than chucking it in landfill.

Interestingly there has been some talk of new microbes that can digest plastics, trouble is they consume the hydrocarbons and excrete CO2 and chlorine gas, might be time to by some gas masks.

glort

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Re: Lister CS setup to make it`s own fuel
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2018, 01:24:42 PM »

I have seen the thing about dissolved poly as well.  I read some white papers on it and they found no problem. Given the things from university's etc on running Veg oil and how they rubbish that when I have done it successfully for 15 years, I can only assume the  Dissolved poly sounds bad but is not any problem in practice.  I also read it increases the energy density of the fuel substantially.

Tradie mate of mine is always Dissolving Polystyrene.  Also gets the ships how much of it he has to unpack from the AC units he works with which are the big commercial muthers.  Was telling me on Monday he sent the young bloke down to the servo last week with a 20L drum to buy unleaded and told him to sprinkle it all round on the poly in the skip bin till it was all gone.  Said it saved him a fortune on hiring another skip bin just to get rid of all the rubbish he couldn't have fitted otherwise.

A test/ guide I have with appraising alternative fuels is to put an amount in a table spoon, put that over a blow torch and see what happens.
If you do it with petrol, Diesel, kero, Biodiesel, turps, it burns without a trace save maybe a fine layer of soot.  Do that with Veg or motor oil and you get deposits. I reckon motor oil is about 5% ash when it's all burnt which is a substantial amount really.

 Veg is basically 3 stage.  You get the light fractions that burn off easy and leaves a tar sort of stuff. That turns to a crust, then a hard carbon, then like a wood ash.  I can only assume the same happens in an engine. If you burn it completely and it goes to ash, it must be exhausted out the tail pipe and there is no problem. If you only get it part way, then that would and indeed does show up as the carbon and tar that gets in ring lands and on valve steams, in ports etc.

As I tend to -Slightly- (  :angel:) over fuel my vehicles  to get more grunt out of them as one does with a diesel, I can only assume doing this creates the deposits while it's blowing smoke which is incomplete ( although very pleasing to the seat of the pants) combustion.  To rectify this mistake, I believe the water injection does a great job in removing those deposits.

It would be good to try the spoon test with the Dissolved poly and see what happens. If there is no residue, you can be certain it will be fine in the engine. If there is, not the end of the world, you would just have to be more conscious of the fuel settings on the engine and perhaps use water injection to combat any potential problems.  People Run their engines all the time on Engine oil ( Hi Ed!) and don't have a lot of problems so if you can do that, It would take a lot of fallout from the poly to be a show stopper.

I wouldn't run a diesel myself without WI on any fuel but when using  fuels other than diesel, I am completely convinced it gives you loads of insurance against a whole load of potential problems and lets you get away scott free with a lot of things that would otherwise bite you in the bum real hard and real fast.

Like I said, from what I have read of it, dissolved Poly is  one of those things that you think no way but in practice, works with no problems at all and a lot of advantages.

I remember a paper linked on a veg forum years ago. They spoke of dissolving  Multiple KG of the poly in an amount, 5L I think it was, of Diesel.
When it dawned on the audience they were talking 3KG of poly not 3L like we all seemed to have in mind, we realised what a huge amount of poly that was! you'd almost expect the stuff to be thick but I have played with dissolving it with petrol as well and the stuff dissolves very clean and clear in that till it saturates and sits there as a blob.  More fuel and it will go back into solution.

Willw

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Re: Lister CS setup to make it`s own fuel
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2018, 12:27:12 AM »
Very interesting thread here.