Author Topic: More panels!  (Read 29796 times)

BruceM

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #75 on: June 04, 2018, 11:16:52 PM »
Thanks for being generous about my rambling, Glort. I'd look into the wall and ceiling insulation situation, as well as duct insulation. 12" fiberglass is the standard ceiling insulation here, but if walls can be raised to R19 then I'd want more than that in the ceiling.  Your wall that gets sun and warms up in winter; yes, but loss all night as well...the same problem as glass.  The only wall heating you really want is a Trombe wall with some sort of insulation outside at night.  Perhaps that sunny wall could be used for a hot air panel- which could be covered in summer?

I'm really spoiled in my new house-  with double framed R40 walls,  the west wall doesn't heat up inside at all in the summer.  For my new neighbor's upgraded and enlarged version of my house, I convinced him to have no windows at all on the west wall. I foolishly put a small one in, thinking better night time air cooling in summer, but have found it best to keep it covered with an outside insulating panel all year round.

If only foil in walls-  egads.

Another thought-  how about adding a large radiator in the central air handling system...with a hot water circ pump  loop from your own DIY veggie oil boiler.  The boiler would be quite a project... but with your oil experience...

ajaffa1

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #76 on: June 04, 2018, 11:42:16 PM »
Hey Glort I vaguely remember a very cheap type of double glazing being available in the UK. It was a self adhesive clear film which you stuck to the window frame. A quick once over with a hair dryer and it would shrink tight and become invisible, trapping an insulating layer of air between the glass and the film.

Wish I could remember what it was called.

Bob

ajaffa1

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2018, 12:09:16 AM »
Thanks BruceM, Interesting video here showing how to make Nickel oxide hydroxide using readily available, cheap chemicals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB6B6u0qe_I

Bob

BruceM

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2018, 01:11:38 AM »
Interesting video, Bob, thanks.  How will you apply the paste to your plates?

I've used the 3M storm window film kit- it works fine.  The exterior version holds up OK, there is also an interior version.


mike90045

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2018, 01:28:53 AM »
NiFe batteries, I have them.   Chicom versions.

The edison ones were pocket plates, packed full of nickel shavings to get as much surface area as possible.  They weren't slabs of metal

ajaffa1

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #80 on: June 05, 2018, 05:17:31 AM »
Hi BruceM, how to apply the paste is the question. Finding some sort of conductive adhesive which isn`t going to dissolve in KOH or upset the electrolytic reaction is tricky. That`s why I originally planned to make something conductive with a large surface area and then electroplate it with Nickel.

Mike90045 believes that the original Edison batteries contained flakes of Nickel rather than nickel oxide hydroxide.

More research required I think.

Bob

BruceM

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2018, 03:27:55 PM »
Sydney is only 33.8 degrees south; so just imagine trying to collect winter solar energy at higher lattitudes N or S. Vertical panel orientation is often used, and only 4 hrs of useful production in southern Canada.

I'm at 34.8 degrees north, so I have similar to Syndey winter decline in PV production.  It's all about panel orientation for winter. Summer is a time of grand excess because of all those hours of production.

My daily electrical power use is about 2.7 KW in winter including 12V for circ pump (heating and solar collection) and sunny day electric cooking.  My refrigerator is propane which saves 1 KW/day. It's worth the $15/mo propane bill for the blissful silence.  Of course this is a 1100 SF house and just one person, solar heating and super insulated.  But looking like 1/15th the electrical energy use, despite being much colder at 5600 feet elevation. My solar hot water panel is collecting 26KWH worth of heat on a winter day at roughly 800W per 16SF flat plate collector x 8 (128 SF total) for 4 hours.  That 83% efficiency for direct solar hot water heating compared to 15% for PV pays off big time in winter. 

In looking at Sydney climate data, your winter temps are so mild that your problem is clearly one of throwing energy outdoors.  Improving insulation should dramatically improve the situation and make the house more comfortable all year round.  Solar hot water heating would work there, too, but I'd always start by seeing what could be done to improve insulation.  Insulation pays back for the life of the house. A good legacy.
















BruceM

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #82 on: June 09, 2018, 12:45:43 AM »
Lots of single pane glass will certainly be problematic.  It's approximately R1.  It's area relative to ceiling and walls and their average R values for a room will determine your average R value and thus loss.  Insulating curtains or shutters for night time could greatly improve night time losses, when they are highest due to larger delta temperature.





BruceM

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #83 on: June 09, 2018, 03:50:15 PM »
Some of the window films as Bob suggested are very good optically and will perform similarly to double pane glass- doubling your window R value to about 2. 

There are plenty of sun angle calculators online for shading.  Deciduous trees can be quite marvelous for seasonal shading.  My Siberian Elms now shade my summer patio from the eastern sun so that it does not heat up.  West walls can benefit greatly from deciduous tree shade or vines on trellis when insulating them adequately isn't possible.

Hugh Conway

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #84 on: June 09, 2018, 03:52:29 PM »
Up here on the coast at 50* N it's quite  cloudy in winter. Around the winter solstice, even if the sky is clear, the sun does not rise above the trees, so we get no solar input. Same for the solar collector for water heating, though the woodstove takes over that chore from October to April. The Listeroid comes in handy for topping up batteries then, and logs about 300 hours annually. We are using about 2 to 2.5 kwh per day.
Re: heat loss through the windows.......even curtains drawn at night help a lot.........and wife likes them! Double layers help even more. Our biggest heat loss is from opening/closing/opening the doors for our old dog to go in and out. Sometimes he can't make up his mind.
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mike90045

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #85 on: June 13, 2018, 04:26:52 AM »
> Our biggest heat loss is from opening/closing/opening the doors for our old dog to go in and out. Sometimes he can't make up his mind

That sounds like feline behavior   :D

BruceM

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #86 on: June 13, 2018, 03:36:54 PM »
Film has the same effect of double pane; adds R1 to your R1 single pane. That cuts your loss in half.  An insulated shutter for night is much more effective but is a building project.

I only use film on one window (already is double pane) for the winter; the frame sweats too much otherwise.

BruceM

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #87 on: June 25, 2018, 04:34:49 AM »
Cold tile on slab floor usually means exposed slab or stem wall outside with no insulation. (Foamboard and metal or foamboard and cement board.) Consider adding some- even a little will help greatly.  If there's a concrete walk outside against it, you're screwed.

Our night time temps are creeping up, I could only get the house down to 74F by this morning. 78F now, too damned hot for me.  I need to work on the inverter and then water chiller for in-slab cooling.




LowGear

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #88 on: June 25, 2018, 07:38:52 PM »
R values are not linear.  R2 is not twice as good as R1.  R1 is the butt kicker.  I seem to remember R10 being rated at something like 90% efficient what ever that means.  And R20 being  something like 93%.  Okay, time has taken it's toll but the relationship is close to those numbers.

In fact, back in Washington state those liberals passed a law making window sales people stop saying that R2 windows were cost effective because of energy transfer.  Quality of life - Yes!  Heating - cooling bills; No.
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BruceM

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #89 on: June 25, 2018, 08:15:09 PM »
Alas, Casey,  the loss through the window glass alone, R2 really does have half the heat transfer as R1. The R scale really is linear.  Marketing types will make up all kinds of nonsense, but there is no such thing as "efficiency" in R values. It only relates to the rate of heat transfer.  Physics, not BS.  R1 is the heat transfer rate of 1 inch of soft pine.  Most blond foam boards (isocyanurate) have an R value of 6-7 per inch.  Straw bales are about R 2.5 per inch.  The insulation and building industries have done a great job at marketing BS, and I know one former building inspector who actually believed that 1/8 inch of fiberglass with a foil facing on the outside of a block wall was going to insulate his home to some fantastic effective R-value as claimed by the seller.  He had to throw 8KW in space heaters to supplement his in floor heat- even combined they could not keep up on windy cold nights. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-value_(insulation)

The R value of the insulation is often defeated by thermal bridging by wood (R1 per inch) from siding to wallboard, and also for fiber insulation, by air infiltration...thus the (typically shoddy) use of wind wraps.

Window loss is only a modest percentage of the total of outside surfaces and losses so halving your window glass loss may mean diddly squat in your power bill.   In a well done, super insulated home, window losses dominate; by the thermal model I used for my home design, my modest sized double pane window losses are now 50% of my total loss. It also is confirmed when I cut my 15F overnight house temperature drop by almost half when I cover them with Astrofoil (similar to Reflectrix- foiled double bubble).