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Author Topic: More panels!  (Read 29771 times)

guest22972

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More panels!
« on: February 19, 2018, 08:58:31 AM »

Continuing with what has turned out to be a solar obsession, I bought another lot of panels today.

20x250W or 5 KW.

The offerings have slowed down a bit of late with not too many coming up and most of them wanting stupid prices. That said, I did miss out on another setup of 20x 250W panels and inverter etc the other week for $400. Buyer had to take down but for that, well worth it.

This last lot of panels I got for $500. The seller had advertised them for $1500 which was well more than they were worth.  This has been working well for me. I know sales and the flip side of that is knowing how to negotiate. it's taken a little working out but is now working pretty effectively.  I put in some low ball offers, wait, come back with a slightly higher one after a week or so and they are in a lot more negotiating demeanour generally.
Of course some are just arrogant and indignant twats that stick to their stupid prices and abuse you for your offers but you see them still advertised a month later. I get a mate to send them another offer and they still stick to their unrealistic prices. Hmm, whos the time wasting idiot now 'eh?

It IS starting get get hard keeping track of what I have now.  My Dad wants me to put some on his place seeing I have now changed his mind. He thought they were bit of a gimmick but on hearing how much I'm saving on my power bill, has now given him a change of heart. I think I'll donate him my original set of 1.5Kw worth of 190's and my slightly limited but still working fine 3 kw inverter with one tracker out of action.  Regularly puts out 1900W with the array I have it connected to so will do full tilt on this lot.  There are a lot of the 180/ 190W panels around so if the 1.5kw isn't enough It will be easy to get more and bump the system another 1.5 and get him another inverter.

My plans will be to keep the existing 5.5KW on the north side of the shed, put the 4 Kw on the south side that are still sitting on the back retaining wall, the new 5KW on the north side of the house and the other 3Kw of 180's on the west side of the house.
The shed is only 5 and 13o pitch so even though the south is the wrong side for panels here down under, I have been getting very good performance out of the ones up there. I will run the numbers again to check but I think they will still be better up there than on the west side of the house.

Our power bill came in today which was interesting. I'm recovering the cost of these panels almost straight away. Instead of years with a new system, it's  one quarter's billing at worst for each set and the way I am getting them cheaper all the time, sometimes as little as 6 weeks.

The one phase I haven't been back feeding so far and only has the AC on it was by far the highest at $180. Being a 3 phase system, that means the total bill just for the Ac would have been $540 alone.  The total bill with over $100 " supply charges" was $362. Hot water was $44 which was a lot lower than I expected.  I have set up a control box now and am feeding that from the phase
I'm currently pumping the most solar into . The box has the voltage switch on it and a PWM controller limiting the 3800W element to just 1500W so the standard circuit is not overloaded.  Although the bill was low this time, I expect it will be a lot higher over autumn and winter. I'm convinced the water heater copping the afternoon sun on the 40o++ days we have had so many of here does completely neutralise any heat loss or even add to the water temp. Going to paint the thing black to make the most of this theroy.  Might even see if I can find some shiny material of some sort to put on the wall behind it and curve it round a bit.

These used panels really have been a great thing.  The ROI is so quick and they have given me a new interest and something to take my mind off things. Now I want to get this all set up for winter and the new wiring done to handle it all.
I'll look at a way to feed the other phase with the AC but other than that for heating it might just be a case of going back to the little fan heaters we used at our other house. Not exactly efficient but as long as we can keep up with the power they use, not really a concern.

For those that can get used panels, I highly recommend even a small setup plugged into the outlet. "Powerjack"  brand inverters are designed specifically for this and come in decent outputs that would make a worthwhile difference to ones consumption.

BruceM

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2018, 04:39:46 PM »
Amazing bargains on 250 watt panels, Glort.  That much affordable power makes me start dreaming of home hydrogen electrolysis and storage or a micro aluminum smelter.

I'm just about ready to install my upgraded 120VDC battery bank controller to better handle my upgrade to 2375 watts from 875.  I couldn't resist upgrading my individual (12v) battery regulators to new pcbs also and that was 10 plus 2 spares boards to assemble, solder, and seal by hand.  I have to wait for the wind to stop- can't think straight on windy days so it's not the time to work with 120VDC and custom electronics.






BruceM

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2018, 12:16:13 AM »
Part of my justification for the power increase was having power for a greenhouse.

For the climate here,  evaporative is cooling needed for greenhouses despite out elevation at 5600 ft. Our summer days are commonly 90-102F, and typically single digit humidity until August, when we have our afternoon monsoon showers.  There are hot weather crops but as luck would have it I can't eat them regularly.  Our high desert climate is a study in extremes, but passive solar greenhouse growers do fairly well except in summer. Summer greenhouse crops are heat stressed and sapped by bugs.  Outdoor growing is limited to masochists; I did it until my entire crop was destroyed by hail three years in a row after being carefully nursed in cold frames, hotcaps, wind walls, etc. through the spring. 

Evaporative cooling is a good sunny day load if your humidity is low enough to allow it.  I did find gardening to be very good therapy and I miss it.

I'm interested in hydroponics also -  as a means to reduce greenhouse bug problems since I can't be around pesticides.  It requires someone with a more technical inclination but that's me anyway.


LowGear

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2018, 05:51:44 PM »
Aloha glort,

Will you, in a couple of easy to read sentences, report what your utility might have to stay about your hooking all these panels up to their grid?

And then a couple more easy to read sentences report what your building permits and zoning agencies might have to say about this as well?

Casey

Also: can you do this without bringing to light their maternal genetic heritage?
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BruceM

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2018, 07:15:24 PM »
Glort has already covered that issue quite thoroughly, Casey, and discussed it with a lawyer, which he also related on the forum.  He's probably right in that he will only get a verbal spanking if played as overzealous patriotic greenie. 

Reminds me of the "big" fines levied on large US pharma corps when they get caught in outrageous deceit (like promoting antidepressants for kids when their own unpublished data showed it would likely cause many to suicide)...those fines were a tiny fraction of their profits from same (criminal) deceit.  This is hardly in the same class and is entirely a civil contractual matter.  Glort might have to pay for a few months power...

About greenhouses, Glort.  I do like aeroponics, widely recognized as perhaps the highest producing method, but not being able to be near electric motors and being off grid makes other hydroponic methods that are less energy intensive more appealing.  While I can insulate and run pipes and remote what pumps are necessary, things like homemade version of the autopot (gravity fed only from a raised tank) start to look more appealing. Other schemes with less water movement such as Bato buckets or Nutrient Film (gutters) also use less energy- important for night and dark days where batteries must provide energy.

Because motor noises stress me greatly, I'm thinking more along the lines of the Persian windcatcher tower with passive evaporator added up near the top of the tower to have convection flow on windless summer days, which are common.   I have found some models for calculating convection driven flows and this is viable with very large passages. About 6500 CFM minimum is needed for a greenhouse of 20x40 feet.  A 24 foot (8M) tall tower with 3x6 foot ID would suffice for that flow rate.  Agriculture buildings are not inspected in my rural county so I have unfettered freedom to do as I wish.

I have an extensive library on greenhouse design and hydroponics...armchair construction is actually better suited to my present physical capabilities.  The greenhouse has been a dream project for many years.

 










BruceM

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2018, 02:25:48 AM »
Glort, I just remembered the hydroponic AutoPot system is an Australian invention.  Check it out:

https://www.autopot.com.au/

Clever valve for gravity flow hydroponics with no pumps or electronics needed.  Interesting invention and it's widely acknowledged success shows that cyclic watering/feeding with the right growth media provides sufficient aeration of plant roots without the energy needs of bubblers, spraying, contiuous circulation, etc.  Their special float/drip irrigation type valve doesn't allow the "pot" to get another trickled in filling of nutrient solution until the last fill has been consumed.  The same approach could be used with an electronic control system with float switch type sensors, also.

My primary interest in hydroponics is due to the widely acknowledged reduction in bug and disease problems due to the lack of soil and sterilization of growing apparatus after each crop.  (Like the glory days of your first year garden every year.) The reduction in water use is also a plus but the need for evaporative cooling makes that seem a relatively minor benefit. 







ajaffa1

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2018, 07:32:18 AM »
Hey Glort, I`ve been following this thread for a while, astonished that you are able to generate that amount of power for so little investment. Your suggestion of using all this power in the garden interests me. Many years ago I was a computer geek and spent a great deal of my time building super fast computers using cheap/obsolete parts, generally this was done by overclocking the computer chips. I discovered that by using a thermocouple and pumped water cooling we could run chips at nearly twice there recommended speeds. I even built one machine on which I could run every Microsoft product ever sold as an application on a Unix based platform.

The thermocouples we used were cheap as, if I remember right they drew about 30 watts. when powered up one side became hot and the other side ice cold. I have thought for a while that these could easily be set up to harvest moisture out of the atmosphere, much the same as a cold beer glass will leave a puddle on the table in our climate. I suspect that with all the excess power you have available you could probably produce all the water you could ever use. I even considered making a prototype, basically a small solar panel driving a heap of thermocouples which you could place at the bottom of a fruit tree to automatically water it when ever the sun was shining. Crazy? probably, but I have one thing most people don`t a signed hospital release saying I am perfectly sane.

Bob

ajaffa1

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2018, 08:59:56 AM »
Further to my previous post please have a look at these https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10pcs-40x40mm-TEC1-12706-Heatsink-Thermoelectric-Cooler-Peltier-Plate-12V-TE610/262966651378?hash=item3d3a08a9f2:g:3koAAOSwVqlaMOhi

I suspect that a piece of 4" box section, raised of the ground, with some of these mounted on the inside would cause a down draft pulling in humid air which would condense on the heat pads and then drip onto the ground below. A bit of experimentation would be required to asses how many to use per panel. It would also be important to avoid getting down to the freezing point of water that could be problematic.

I have no idea how much water this would capture in a day but I have seen tables running with water from just a few cold beers.

ajaffa1

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2018, 11:37:38 AM »
Hey Glort, be careful what you wish for, hope you are not in for some sort of biblical flood, I had one just before Christmas and I`m still trying to clean up the mess. On the bright side I won`t have to cut firewood for five years. Trouble with rain fall in Australia is that it lands on dead dry land and washes the top soil away, best thing you could do is drill the paddocks/gardens so some soaks in.

I saw the video of dew harvesting, very cool idea, I think it was in the mountains in Bolivia. Sadly not much dew or condensation here, just heat and humidity, that said we have had the best rainfall I have seen in the last five years. Trouble is I have to spend too much time cutting the grass and not enough time building engines and playing with my toys.

I did reply to your message, if you didn`t get my reply it`s probably due to the problems with the mail server. Please feel free to email me at ajaffa1@yahoo.co.uk, yes it`s a UK address, I kept it when I came to Oz six years ago, strangely enough I now get next to no spam email because the spammers in Oz don`t recognise my address while the ones in the UK know there is no point emailing a bloke in Australia.

Bob

LowGear

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2018, 05:59:38 PM »
Quote
I know I am well taxing your reading and comprehension abilities now, but why do you even ask and in this way?
Just seems like an attempt to put down what I am doing and discredit it. If it were anything else you'd be asking about the setup itself because it does not matter a fig to you what the rules are here or what I'm doing on my place.  Just a smoke screen to try and put shit on my efforts is all.
If that's what you want to do, fine, just come out and have the balls to do it up front. I care about that as much as I give a damn about the underhanded way of doing it and jealous prats going on about rules and regulations like it matters an iota to them. 

To spell it out, I don't give a Fk about idiotic and worthless rules and regs that serve no purpose other than to give bureaucrats who polish a seat with their arse a job whom have no idea what they are talking about anyway. If other people are scared of their own shadows and won't do a thing that they are told they can't and think they have to have qualified sparky in to change a fuse, Good on them.

These rules and regs are no guarantee of safety or reliability, I can point to many specific documented cases where compliance has been the CAUSE of fires and safety issues. They just changed back a rule with isolators here to what it was previously after it was worked out how many fires had been started in systems due to compliance with the "new" regulations. The fire dept were the ones who came heavy on the gubbermint to change it back after they saw an instant veritable explosion of fires on these new installs No one knows why the rules with that were changed in the first place but it was a hell of a stuff up that caused a LOT of problems that's for sure.

And if you are still with us, to prempt the next inevitable excuse for the concern about rules and regs, No, it won't Violate my insurance unless they can PROVE it was the cause of a problem.  If a fire is started by a gas leak in the house, they can't write off the claim because my solar setup isn't compliant.
Maybe where you live they can get away with that and have you bent over a table with your pants down but it does NOT cut it here. 
Unless they can prove a fire started as a result of a FAULT in my solar setup, everything else IS still covered.

My setup has more breakers and disconnects than any Compliant system and they are all rated to trip the moment something goes wrong by very tight tolerances for the power going through them. To turn it round, I'd challenge anyone to leave the protection I have in place and manipulate the rest of the system in anyway TO cause a problem if they tried. It won't happen.

But thanks for your legitimate concern.

Your right. 
Quote
I know I am well taxing your reading and comprehension abilities now, but why do you even............(the dots are my quoting our illustrious leadershipness.)

I got through the first part and your area does have some rather stupid and hidden agenda rules.  We have some too.  Not quite as stupid but all in all - Deceptive and misdirected. 

I'm behind schedule this morning.  Manana! 
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LowGear

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2018, 11:26:40 PM »
I find your approach interesting.  Damn the torpedoes - Full speed ahead!
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mike90045

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2018, 07:48:06 AM »
 
Quote
There is a thought..... Do an electrolysis setup with my extra solar power and feed the oxygen to the plants. That would give them a boost!

I hope this is in jest.   Plants consume Co2 and release oxygen. 
Vertebrates (and invertebrates) consume oxygen and release Co2. 

LowGear

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2018, 05:16:55 PM »
What about the hours of darkness?
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dieselspanner

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2018, 08:09:53 PM »
I'm not scared of the dark, I'm scared of the things that live in the dark..................

Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

LowGear

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Re: More panels!
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2018, 11:01:00 PM »
In olden days in hospitals when darkness fell they would remove flowers because after dark plants take up oxygen and output carbon dioxide.

Hey glort,  How come you just don't completely off grid?
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