Author Topic: Router Speed Control Device vs. 4X36 Belt Sander  (Read 1486 times)

LowGear

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Router Speed Control Device vs. 4X36 Belt Sander
« on: February 04, 2018, 01:54:33 AM »
I thought it would be so easy.  Slow my cheapski stationary belt sander with a router speed control device so I can sharpen knives and the like.  You guys that known the outcome should shed the light upon my wrinkled brow.  As I looked at this https://smile.amazon.com/Work-Sharp-Sharpening-Repeatable-Consistent/dp/B003IT5F14/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1517709121&sr=8-1&keywords=knife+sharpener+belt+driven I knew I already had the stuff I needed or I thought I did.  So how do I slow it down and why didn't my brainstorm work?
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BruceM

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Re: Router Speed Control Device vs. 4X36 Belt Sander
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2018, 02:21:56 AM »
If your stationary sander is driven by an induction motor and not a brushed "universal" motor that would be the problem, since routers are brushed universal motors so will take any sort of chopped up power at any RMS voltage and have no starting problems whatsoever.

glort

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Re: Router Speed Control Device vs. 4X36 Belt Sander
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2018, 07:28:11 AM »

Try one of these Casey:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4KW-SCR-Super-Power-Electronic-Digital-Regulator-Dimmer-Speed-Thermostat-T1K/362119874183?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Or one of these:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AC-220V-4000W-SCR-Electric-Voltage-Regulator-Dimmer-Motor-Speed-Controller-Case/282561420914?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Essentially the same thing, one is manual the other is Digital control .
I have a few of the manual ones, just wired another up today for an experiment and I have a couple of others doing different things.
Last one was for my Aeroponics system. Little pond pumps kept burning out and clagging up due to the sediment in the fertiliser I use.  got a dirty water pump that was a tad too powerful and literally blew the plants out of the drum. Put one of these things behind the timer its on and turned it down to the level I want. Been working fine for months now.

Just bought a couple more to limit the power feed to my hot water heater from the solar inverter.
I also have one I used on my jumping castle and and induction motor blowers for my oil burners.  Slows the motors to any speed you want basically.

Just remembered you are a bit wary of electricity so maybe you might prefer a prebuilt Version:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4000W-AC-220V-Variable-Voltage-Controller-Control-For-Fan-Speed-Motor-Dimmer/122632481454?epid=2245609470&hash=item1c8d772aae:g:IQYAAOSws19ZhYb3

I have used these with universal and induction motors.  They make the universal motors hum  a bit as you can hear the chopping of the power, Run a lot of hours on them on the castle blowers and they don't seem to be affected adversely.
With the induction motors i am just wary to keep the things running fast enough to get up on the run windings and not run them on the start windings. Maybe at low speed/ power it's OK?
Don't know so haven't tried assuming it would not be a good thing.

They should slow your sander down without problem... or anything else you plug into them for that matter.

LowGear

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Re: Router Speed Control Device vs. 4X36 Belt Sander
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2018, 06:25:41 PM »
Aloha,

Yup, it's an induction motor.  Probably why it doesn't throw anyone off their balance on start-up.

Thanks for the suggestions glort and going to the trouble to link them in.  I'll look for something like them that runs on 120 and has a gosh bless America plug on it.  PS.  When I was a trained killer I repaired radars in Korea.  I learned a bit of respect and to be careful around stuff that could burn my fingers off faster than I could recite the first letter in my service number.  Shit happens, Lad.

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mike90045

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Re: Router Speed Control Device vs. 4X36 Belt Sander
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2018, 10:35:11 PM »
If it's a Induction motor, you would really need a VFD (variable frequency drive) to make it happy.

If you use a Voltage-Regulator-Dimmer-Motor-Speed-Controller  you risk dropping into the starter winding for too long and burning it up. or repeatedly stalling the motor.  Try the cheap route, but prepare for the expensive VFD.  Or consider a new, cheap motor the Voltage-Regulator-Dimmer-Motor-Speed-Controller would work with

LowGear

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Re: Router Speed Control Device vs. 4X36 Belt Sander
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2018, 08:09:38 PM »
The good news is that I found the VFD things on Amazon.  https://smile.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=VFD but they're 220V or over $100.  Do they make 120V units?

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Re: Router Speed Control Device vs. 4X36 Belt Sander
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2018, 01:45:02 AM »
Grainger has some, single phase 120V

Variable Frequency Drive, 1/4 Max. HP, 1 Input Phase AC, 120VAC Input Voltage  $235

Brand    SCHNEIDER ELECTRIC
Item #    5WJJ5
Mfr. Model #    ATV12H018F1
 argh, it's 3 ph output.   Keep looking

google    single phase vfd
https://www.wolfautomation.com/blog/vfds-for-single-phase-motors/

here's a good write up about the starting winding on single phase motors, and the need to avoid going too slow:
https://kebblog.com/vfds-for-single-phase-applications/



starfire

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Re: Router Speed Control Device vs. 4X36 Belt Sander
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2018, 05:15:13 AM »
You can do this job for free. Power the sander with your generator, and slow the generator down. Lower generator RPM equals lower mains frequency equals slower induction motor.....

you're welcome

You can speed it up like this too.

glort

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Re: Router Speed Control Device vs. 4X36 Belt Sander
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2018, 11:01:15 AM »
You can do this job for free. Power the sander with your generator, and slow the generator down. Lower generator RPM equals lower mains frequency equals slower induction motor.....

It's an INDUCTION motor, not a DC or universal motor.

Lower generator speed also means lower Voltage  which on an induction motor may cause the thing to operate on the run windings and will certainly cause higher amps through the motor which will mean more heat and the potential to burn it out. On an induction motor the amperage increase through the windings is inversely square to the lowering of the voltage resulting in the windings slowly burning. Reducing the frequency in this way is a very lame and ineffective idea.

May cause additional problems if the Generator has an AVR installed as well.  With a bit of luck, there may be no power to stuff anything up.

Quote
you're welcome

I wouldn't be so quick to congratulate yourself on giving out such bad advise unless you also accompany it with an offer to compensate for any damage to equipment that the employ of such flawed advise may bring.


Quote
You can speed it up like this too.

You really have no clue do you?

Forget the again increased heat through the windings, there is also the small problem of increased stress on the rotor, bearings and centrifugal switch.
There is a reason VFD's  are used for controlling motor speed and they just don't run a light bulb in series to effectively just lower the voltage.
Again, also brings up potential problems if the genny has an AVR.

Perhaps you might like to prove me wrong on this by doing a demonstration Vid of you running some equipment of yours over a period of time off a genny you have slowed down?
Really show your faith in your advise by running something expensive.    :laugh:

starfire

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Re: Router Speed Control Device vs. 4X36 Belt Sander
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2018, 09:13:27 PM »
Glort, you are talking rubbish. and again becoming hysterical and dramatic.
Smallish Induction motors are designed to run at 50 and  60 cycles for a worldwide market, and a safe percentage above and below. If they are not overloaded, they will happily run on higher or lower frequencies, exactly as happens with variable speed drives.
A generator should NOT vary its voltage significantly when running above or below its stated RPM, this is the job of the AVR. Even if it did, all motors are rated within plus/minus 20 percent constant. voltage , with substantial safety margins.
What issues with the AVR? Are you saying it will burn out attempting to saturate the stator? Another myth.
The sander in question will be powered by a capacitor start motor,as it is not required to have high starting torque, therefore any centrifugal switch is not present. Increased wear on bearings???  Rubbish.
The rotor in an induction motor has shorting bars, not windings, so how can the rotor be "stressed" above and beyond?
Your suggestion of a VFD is ridiculous for such an application, its likely to cost more than the sander.
The gentlemans query was to slow run a cheap sander easily and presumeably cheaply I believe.
This  also implies intermittent use of the appliance anyway..
You  are  very quick to have an opinion on stuff you know very little about.... google does your thinking i suspect.
Yes, I can demonstrate this, I do this frequently with my drill press, but I wont....... your incessant need to be right, you will poo poo any demonstration and start a slanging match, as you have so done before, and attempting to do now.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 10:24:16 PM by starfire »

glort

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Re: Router Speed Control Device vs. 4X36 Belt Sander
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2018, 11:20:49 PM »
Yes, I can demonstrate this, I do this frequently with my drill press, but I wont.......

And there we have it.
Do what I say even if I won't do it myself.
And anyone who does not agree with you is " Hysterical" right?  ::)

You rubbish google but there is a lot of info written by qualified people who support what I have said.  Where do you get your info from to support what you have said?

You also failed to notice I provided 3 links to cheap speed regulation devises I DO use myself, every day. If you can read what is written here which is something you seem to have trouble with, I NEVER suggested an VFD, I simply said it was what was used for controlling motor speed. If you take your time and spell the words out slowly as you go, you may be able to work out, all on your own even, that my suggestions were Motor speed controllers which are not VFD's.
Try to keep up before you go on with your indignant and flawed hissy fits will you and attribute things to those who said it not those who did not.
 ::)

I guess at the end of the day Casey can take his chances with what he wants to believe.
 Are You going to back up your suggestion and guarantee to replace any equipment that fails by running his generator under speed?

LowGear

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Re: Router Speed Control Device vs. 4X36 Belt Sander
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2018, 06:00:54 PM »
You know; $70 for a dedicated sharpener is starting to look not too bad.

News Flash!  I have a handheld belt sander that is powered by a brushed universal motor (OK, I looked back through the posts to remember "brushed universal").  Flip it on it's back held down with a couple of clamps and look out dull edges.

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glort

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Re: Router Speed Control Device vs. 4X36 Belt Sander
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2018, 09:37:48 PM »

The motor speed controllers I linked to ( in 110V versions) would definitely work with that to allow you to slow it down.

I generally use a flap disk on a grinder for this sort of thing. Never had a problem with it being too fast.  I can put an edge on the axe I can almost shave with just with the flap wheel.
Obviously no good for finer blades but for the big stuff like mower blades etc, works fine for  me. 

LowGear

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Re: Router Speed Control Device vs. 4X36 Belt Sander
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2018, 07:05:53 PM »
Hi glort,

I also use an angle grinder / sander for the mower blades but no one is going to be shaving with these puppies except for some lava here and there.  The chipper blades are ran pretty much the same barbecue.  I do have to be careful about burning them.  But on mower blades if your edge is kinda sharp you're close enough.

I like the belt sander for the machetes and shovels as it's easy to get a good enough edge and I use the machete coarseness as a saw on banana harvests.  Once the stumps turn to paper it's a saw or nothing.  These fancy serrated edges that are left by the full speed 36 grit belt sander don't handle the lava so well.  And a chainsaw only gets the kiss once and it's back to the round file.

This Hawaiian life isn't all samosas for breakfasts at pools edge.  Well, on Fridays it might be samosas on the beach for breakfast but all the other days are work, work and more work.

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glort

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Re: Router Speed Control Device vs. 4X36 Belt Sander
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2018, 09:16:45 PM »

Some years back a mate of mine Bought a linishing attachment for his bench Grinder.  Was a wheel and frame that held a belt run off the grinder.
He was a Chef and sick paying  to have knives sharpened properly. Can only do them so many times on a steel apparently.

Turned out he was really good with the linisher and wasn't long before all his other chef mates whom he ( mistakenly) showed his handy work to were turning up with their cutlery.

Not sure what these things are worth where you are, you can buy the linishers here to fit to bench grinders  or get them with the grinder as a kit.
Might be an alternative for the little tool you showed?


I got myself a Real ripper of a ride on mower a few months back. It's a Honda with a 2 Cyl in line water cooled engine. I believe it's the same engine they put in those little cars they called the Z or the Zot.  The mower is 30 years old and they didn't make them for long ( Crying shame!) but in awesome condition and runs like a dream.
When I got it,  I took it off the ute and mowed the front lawn before I even took it round the back.  I wasn't real impressed with the finish but the mower itself was great. So smooth, quite and torquey.  I really didn't want one of those air-cooled Briggs or similar things and was looking for a Diesel but this came along literally round the corner and cheap so I grabbed it. Thought I'd make do with it till something better came along but I don't ever want to part with it now.  ( I'd still like to do a Diesel conversion on another mower though. )

When I got it up the back and gave it the once over I was amazed the thing could cut anything at all. I have seen sharper Dowel rod with a better edge than what the blades on that mower had. If it were not for the condition of the rest of the things I'd seriously wonder about the previous owners claims of maintence and care for the machine. Blades were so worn as well as bent and must have been well out of balance, not that I noticed. 

Got new blades from the local tractor joint cheaper than I could get them online  and replaced all the bent nails and wire holding the deck on with the proper R clips.
Thing really cuts the grass nice now. Amazing what an edge on a mower blade can do!

I'm looking forward to when we get some rain and the grass grows nice and thick and lush. Despite the watering, it's pretty much just holding on atm and there is always more dust than clippings.

Wonder if that thing about magnets slowing/ stopping water meters is True?   ;D