It's all YOUR fault!!

[guest22972]

All this talk of  engine rebuilds and therapy and interesting pics..... Got me motivated again to drag out the jackhammer and give her a fire up.

Crank handle and a couple of bits arrived this morning from Old timer engines wrapped up like I have never had anything wrapped before. To say secure would be a gross understatement. Literally took me 5 min with a sharp knife to unearth my newest oily treasures.

Spend some time mucking round trying to get the thing mibile on some wheeled trolleys then came across some 6" castor wheels so lifted the thing up high and screed them on underneath the hardwood bearers it's sitting on.  Quite a feeling working underneath something swinging around like that.
Told the Mrs those 1 ton 2m  lifting slings they had on special would come in handy the other week and I was right yet again!

With nothing more then the old bio still in the line from it's last fire up about 3 - 3.5 years ago, I tested the fit of the handle which was secure but very free, did the mental practice of the motions, wondered if I was going the right way and spun her up.
Fuel was on, dropped the compression lever and it self sustained almost silently... which was a new thing. Couldn't hear it firing but there was a feint smoke and the thing wasn't slowing down even if it weren't speeding up. after probably a good 10 sec she fired audibly, repeated and gained speed.... and jackhammer motion.  We made good Bio my mate and I!  Don't have any oil atm so the poor thing will have to suffer that Diesel junk. I'll put plenty of 2 stroke in it to make it more palatable  and find some oil on the weekend for it.

I had already put 120G of wheel weights on each flywheel where the weight is cast in and the thing was clearly yawing fore and aft with the same sort of exuberance I remembered.  Ran it till she  settled and shut it off hoping it wasn't going to fall over on the wind down.
Added another 60G of weight to what I thought was the light side, 2nd spin up and immediately observed I got that wrong.
Removed added weight and put it on other side.  Wouldn't fire and saw the old hardened fuel line had broke off at the filter barb so came in for a couple of the largest glasses of ice water we have soaking in sweat and to inform the world  of my major breakthrough for the day. 

Wondering now if I did the right thing with the wheels. Don't have too much time to spend on this right now before my daughters 21st party next weekend and I figured If I just sit the thing in the garden/ dirt it should settle or rock around as it wants.  If it settles on the wheels I may never get it out with the mower.  Spose I can drag it out with the car.   Might have been better just to put it on skids and slide it across the lawn?

I'll give it a few more windups after I put some fuel line on it and see if I can find one of the couple of fuel pumps I know I have somewhere unpacked or I'll just have to hang a jerry can out of a tree to feed it. I'll play with the weights a bit and see how I go. wasn't successful last time but I'll also try that balancing app I downloaded a couple of years back.  Not sure how that will go but can't hurt it it don't help.

Ordered some old coach light lamps the other day and some of those trendy old time LED bulbs. Going to make a lamp post  Out of some big steel I have and have the roid running that through and inverter off the 2x 12V alternators I have on the thing.  Probably won't get any lister flicker which would look good in this case.

More more work, time and effort I'm not really up to atm but it's all you guys fault for the inspiration and motivation. 
First lot I have had in a couple of years so can't complain I spose.

[ajaffa1]

Way to go Glort, glad you got your mojo back.
It should be possible to balance the beast, have you compared the positions of the counter weights to TDC? Could be you have the wrong flywheels or they have been machined with the keyways in the wrong place, does it have a heavy cast iron piston or the lighter aluminium piston?

Happy birthday to your Daughter, I expect it will be one hell of a night.
Bob

[dieselgman]

What rotational speeds have you tried? Is your unit bouncing at all speeds? There should be a sweet-spot found somewhere in the range that reduces your imbalance... a place to start.

dieselgman

[ajaffa1]

Hi Glort, I would start simple by comparing what you have with the Dursley originals, just visual inspection and comparison to original photos should give you some idea of what is out of whack. DEV precision  still sell flywheels for these, an alternative might be to have the ones you have modified to take taper lock bushes which you could adjust in either direction, by one degree at a time until you reach equilibrium. You could perhaps do the same on the cheap by drilling and taping a couple of grub screws into the fly wheel boss keyways. A piece of key steel could be made to fill the keyway allowing the flywheel to be rotated as desired and then, temporarily, locked using the grub screws. Once it is balanced it should be easy to make this a permanent solution using a mig welder.

Bob

[ajaffa1]

Hi Glort.
It should not bounce about like that. I`m thinking you have a cast piston (6/1) with 8/1 flywheels or you have an 8/1 lightweight piston with 6/1 flywheels. Take a look tomorrow and see which piston type you have.

I don`t know if the Listeroid manufacturers have continued the tradition of casting the horse power onto the fly wheels. On my Dursley, flywheel one is identified as for a 6/1  while the other has a date of manufacture.

Failing all else you could probably dance with it at the birthday party, just watch it doesn`t tread on your toes.

Bob

[2Ton46]

I took the crankcase door off and had a look. With the piston at TDC, the weights are in the same position, at the top of the flywheel.

I think this identifies the issue. weights should be opposite of the crank throw, so weights at bottom of wheels with piston at TDC. Try adding weight opposite of the cast weights on the flywheels, and it will take a lot as you're going to have to cancel out the cast in weight plus add enough to cancel the bouncing. Or look into one of the methods for rotating the flywheels.

[BruceM]

No wonder you have a hopper, Glort!!! Hopper hardly covers what it must be like.  A real Rajkot revenge model.  Absolutely no way they didn't notice on the test firing...yet shipped it anyway.

Getting new keyways cut seems the safest way out...double the counterbalance weight on the opposite side would work but makes me a bit nervous for a spoked flywheel.

Hopefully our more knowledgeable members will offer an opinion regarding a solution.

 

[ajaffa1]

Hi Glort, I`m in the middle of painting my flywheels. No1 wheel has a TDC mark on it which I have highlighted with blue marker pen. If the keyway on your fly wheel is different from the picture below you have a real problem. You could get the keyways recut or get replacement flywheels. Another option would be to have them modified for taper lock bushes

Bob

[ajaffa1]

I was going to make the skids wide so they slide easier. I'm wondering if I should turn the timber narrow side so they dig in for some stability when the thing is running?

G`Day Glort, glad to hear things aren`t as bad as we first thought regarding the flywheels. For the sled/skid I would go wide rather than narrow, unless you want to have to dig it out later. I should get some round poles or steel tubes to act as rollers when moving it. Drill a 1" hole in all four corners of the sled and beat a steel pin through each hole into the ground, rebar would be ideal. Good luck with the shed and watch it with the meds.

Bob

[BruceM]

If you won't remove the flywheels to get them matched, the use the Mr X method on each flywheel- marking the flywheel with a felt tip marker and applying weight opposite the mark and leading it direction of rotation about 8 inches.  Alternate flywheels,  in 4 oz increments.  This requires a LOT of starts and stops and takes a lot of patience, but it does work. 

Glad your flywheel weights aren't 180 degrees out!

[Hugh Conway]

@Glort  "I'll try shifting some weight around with the playdough"

Stand back!!! Stay out of the line of fire from the flywheels. Putty makes a fine slapping sound as it hits the nearby
anything.....flattens out and sticks nicely to adjacent walls...........been there. It's a good laugh so long as you don't take a hit yourself.
Cheers,
Hugh

[dieselgman]

Don't be afraid of the gib keys. They can be difficult but will almost always come out with gradual effort and the right solvent. Soak them well with a strong penetrating oil, apply a gradual pull. In some cases of heavy rust, heating the parts and quenching with penetrating oil will do the trick. I have pulled them from rusted units left out in the field for 40 years. If your puller is not effective, you can sometimes move them by the wedge method. Drive flat hardened steel wedges between the key and the flywheel hub... gradually increase the force until the key moves.

dieselgman

[ajaffa1]

Hi Glort, had a crazy thought last night when I went to bed. If what you have is a Lister copy with flywheels for a 6/1 but with an alloy piston then the counter weights on the flywheels will be too heavy not too light. Try adding about 1/4 kilo of playdough to each flywheel opposite the counterweight and see what happens, if things improve you are going in the right direction. Somewhere on this forum I remember seeing the weights of different pistons but I don`t remember where.

Bob

[BruceM]

Sculpy plastic modeling clay worked well for me- hard and sticky enough to not fly off rim, which is dangerous.
It's the stuff you bake in the oven to make prototype plastic parts.

Up and down movement-  not enough counterweight.  Fore and aft movement-  too much counterweight. \
A mixture indicates that counterweight location is off- for one or both flywheels. 

The Mr X marking method- I used a stick in a bucket of gravel as a steadyrest for the felt tip marker, mark the wheels at 9 o'clock. Short of pulling the wheels per 30ac's method (the best by far), this is your best hope. Mr X will let you deal with counterweights mismatched and off position- but is very, very tedious.

I've used a wedge to remove gib keys- ground into the side of a slim jim pry bar.  I also have a puller of the type that slips over the shaft and pulls the key with pressure on the shaft end. Both work.

[2Ton46]

Glad to hear the wheels are in fact the right way with the weights. I'm sure you will get the balance better. With the hopping it sounds like there isn't enough weight to me. When I did mine, it was hard to tell what it was doing and was frustrating as it needed way more weight than seemed reasonable at the time. I didn't think of using my camera until I was almost done. If your camera or phone will record in slow motion, that can really help you see what directions the thing is moving around, and if you can set it on something to record from the same spot for each attempt may show you if things are getting better or worse before you can see it by observing its movements in relation to something in the background in slow motion.
Although, nothing says wild party quite like a 'Roid making laps around the yard...