Author Topic: Project Roid  (Read 12485 times)

2Ton46

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Project Roid
« on: December 05, 2017, 03:20:36 AM »
Hello everyone.  I am a new member, and must have been suffering from iron deficiency, as I ended up with a twin.  I'll be sharing some of my work here, I'm setting up the twin on a small cart to provide a mobile stationary power source for the farm.  Mainly because it seems like a fun way to spend some free time and maybe learn something along the way. This forum has been a valuable resource, and thanks to everyone for their contributions.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 03:34:33 AM by 2Ton46 »

38ac

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Re: Project Roid
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2017, 12:57:47 PM »
Welcome!
Looks like you have a PTO set up on there?  How does it behave on the cart? I had a 25-2 and at an RPM over real slow it shook the cart pretty bad.
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dieselgman

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Re: Project Roid
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2017, 02:48:31 PM »
Welcome 2Ton! Glad to see that 12/2 Century up and running so fast! You are the first to post up a finished (or nearly finished) project with one of these from our Kansas warehouse. Your PTO drive is creative and fascinating for me. Please show us the fans and various drive-shafts you have devised.

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2Ton46

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Re: Project Roid
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2017, 02:33:14 AM »
It was certainly a kit.  It had or has many of the issues commonly described, like sand/slag/iron in the case, and in my instance a big chunk of that stuff that was partially blocking the sump. Looked like a paper wasp nest but was mostly iron and sand. I ended up melting most of it out with a torch as it was not responsive to pounding or prying. Most of the bearings looked pretty good, I did pull a shim from a rod big end.  I'm not certain that all of the alignment is absolutely correct as far as the main and cam bearings, but everything feels good by my poking. I've felt far worse in running equipment. I didn't strip it and hot tank it, rather spent a day poking, brushing, washing along with some disassembly of the already assembled base. I probably missed something someplace but I feel that I got most of it. It's on its 3rd oil change with less than 3 hours of run time as well...Had a few minor bent or missing parts with the kit, one of the water manifolds had a hole drilled out of alignment, I simply enlarged the hole and it fit. Dieselgman was super helpful in hunting down a missing 9" stud from the kit and mailing it down. Also had a bottom oil ring and spring that was just loose in the cylinder instead of on the pistons like all the other rings, it probably was popped off when they packed it.  I used it, it didn't quite sit flat on the table the whole ring was a slight spiral, but looked ok otherwise and when put into the ring groove it looked ok, so we took a chance on it. On the bright side the cylinders both had a nice cross hatch and felt consistent when pulling the pistons through by hand so that part at least looked fairly well done. The idler gears felt pretty good by my hand as well, time will tell if they settle in properly or start to self destruct.

The cart is built purposely over heavy and wide to help with stability. Probably 500lbs of steel in it. Running it on the cart is ok after almost 3 lbs of lead weights. without them it was a jumper and a wiggler.  Interestingly, most of the hopping seemed to be on only one side. with the weights the cart remains in place with out any movement of the wheels on concrete. This is at rated engine speed, as well as most speeds down to off. I would not call it vibration free, but at least I can read the thermometer now lol.

The PTO shaft was designed to match up with some equipment we have as well as a couple of fans that we use around the shop or in the case of the larger one, the yard.  It also makes a convenient way to power the radiator fan. I also will have a 12" flat belt pulley on the crankshaft as well for power take off. PTO runs at 325 rpm.

The shop fan is a 60" propeller fan that has been adapted to accept either electric power or shaft drive power. Here it is on shaft drive:


The yard fan is an airfoil blower that has been mounted to a cart and accepts power via flat belt drive or shaft drive from either end. this also can function as a pass through, as seen above. This fan also has oscillating louvres I fabricated to sweep the airflow. This allows the fan to cover a much larger area. With the fan running by PTO it delivers enough wind to cover several thousand square feet of yard on a calm day, sweeping cycle is three times per minute.  Uses about 4hp at that speed, and isn't noisy. The fan is well under rated speed at this figure and if turned at rated speed (3625 rpm) it would sap nearly 70 BHP not counting driveline loss.  I think at that speed it would thrust itself halfway to the moon if all it was tied to was the little cart.

We use it while working on something out in the open or have set it up on one end of the yard for an event and cooled 100 people. (don't worry it gets fenced to help keep 'em out of the works)

38ac

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Re: Project Roid
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2017, 12:30:11 PM »
Now that is interesting,  thanks for the update.  Funny you would mention that glob of slag and cold metal in the crankcase. My 12/2 of same nameplate  has yet to be uncrated so I dont know what awaits me there but an unfinished 16/2 kit engine that I have had in my procession for several years has that same glob right above the oil intake screen.  I would guess from the same run of castings?? I now know how to get rid of it if it resists my normal methods.

The twins are really hard to get settled down on a cart due to the balancing weights being on opposite sides of the crankshaft axis and a long ways apart. The engine wants to pivot around the center of mass (middle main bearing) in every possible direction. You have done well to get it settled down on a cart!

 The best twin I have in that respect is a TL which is (basically) the same bottom end as a CS twin only gasoline fueled and spark ignition. The TL has no balance weight in the flywheels at all. It is much better behaved on a cart when running at an  RPM it likes,,, but much worse at the RPMs its doesnt like, LOL.  It is strictly a show engine so we just run it at speeds where it will sit decently still.
Here is the TL at an RPM it likes
https://youtu.be/BEHiPaIBLig
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Willw

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Re: Project Roid
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2017, 03:29:22 PM »
Welcome aboard 2Ton!
That's a really interesting project you have there ;D
Daily driver '97 GMC W4 tipper on WVO/Kerosene mix.
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BruceM

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Re: Project Roid
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2017, 06:02:20 PM »
My friend Mark found that his biggest conical with round end carbide burr (about 2" diameter at base) in a die grinder worked very well in smoothing and shaping the openings and casting flash fins and such in my neighbors new Rajkot CS crankcase casting.  I gave it try and also found it worked a treat- controlled smooth cutting and shaping instead of the painfully slow grinding with stones.  I was going to buy one for myself until I found out it was about $160. 

Love your new portable twin CS PTO emulator setup, 2Ton.  Your portable monster fan is most impressive, too! 






gusbratz

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Re: Project Roid
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2017, 11:29:19 PM »
I really liked my harbor freight needle scaler for needle gunning out the inside of my engine. I also liked how once it chipped out the slag it seemed to peen the surface and tighten it all up.

vdubnut62

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Re: Project Roid
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2017, 03:34:54 PM »
Now that is the coolest setup I have seen in a long time! The only thing that would be cooler would be a maze of flat belts, but that would be liable to "eat" bystander that got a little too curious. Welcome and keep it up.
Ron
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"Remember, every time a child is responsibly introduced to the best tools for the protection of freedoms, a liberal weeps for the safety of a criminal." Anonymous

2Ton46

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Re: Project Roid
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2017, 04:51:11 AM »
I think someone said it would be cooler via flat belt:

I've done a few more additions and adjustments.  Pretty soon it will be ready for final paint.
I have added a belt drive oil pump and spin on filter to pull a little oil from the sump, filter it, and return it to the sump via a fitting on the crankcase door. I chose the door as the location as it was easy to drill and tap, and easy to fix should something have gone wrong. I was going to put it in over the offside end of the cam, but I would have had to disassemble everything to get it there and I didn't think it would be worth the effort. Planning on securing the hoses a bit better, but the clamps I have on hand weren't right for the job. I have also added pressure gauges before and after the filter, and a sight glass to monitor the level (works well when shut down, pump draws level down in glass when operating - especially with cold oil). Also found a sight flow indicator to plumb in, not necessary but makes for a conversation piece or educational tool for younger folks. Also put in a pressure gauge on the plunger oil pump discharge. Used a 0.008" orifice as a snubber to dampen the pulses. I gave up trying to find a tubing fitting to fit the hole in the pump discharge that was plugged with a bolt and copper washer, I ended up tapping it for 1/8" NPT.  Works pretty well. Also fitted a toolbox to hold the crank and any other items that might be needed.



I messed around with the balance some more, and found that I'm about as good as I can get unless I want the whole cart to rotate clockwise looking down from the top. That would not be convenient for hooking up and powering anything. Amazing how 3 ounces can make a big difference. I've also slowed the speed down to around 550 rpm from 650, I don't need the full 12 hp, and looking at the literature I've found that at least the English built ones were rated down to 8hp/500 rpm, so I should be in a reasonable range. 550 rpm didn't change the balance much but did help some with the magnitude of the vibrations as well as making them proportionally lower in frequency. It runs pretty smooth out on the grass, but a little hoppy on concrete but not enough to be an issue and the cart stays in one spot. The cart as a whole is very rigid, but it is setting on laminated rubber tires that do have some spring to them. I will say that the decrease in speed has made the governor less sensitive, the engine is much less aggressive in getting up to its speed set point. Anyone have suggestions for making the stick on wheel weights a more permanent installation?

The belt drive with the 12" pulley that came with the kit runs the fan a little faster than the PTO shaft does due to a slightly different ratio.  With the RPM on the engine lowered it is about the right fan speed to balance noise with airflow coverage when on the belt. I haven't tried it on the PTO shaft yet with the slower engine speed, it should still be in a usable range though as well.  If for some reason it isn't I might add another PTO output that is driven up to get back to 325 rpm.

2Ton46

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Re: Project Roid
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2017, 05:25:27 AM »
I'm working on getting a short video of it up on my youtube channel, but its taking ages to upload.  Here is a link to the channel.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzu9ratuD6V3D5zpeqii6OA

To pass the time while we wait for the upload to complete, have a ride with me in my 1946 Chevrolet 2-ton delivering some Hay last year:

https://youtu.be/ZkMW_jg26Os

dax021

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Re: Project Roid
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2017, 07:45:13 AM »
Hi 2Ton, that's a fantastic job that you've done, but please, lose that terrible plastic toolbox.  Maybe you can find an old metal ammo box and spray to match the Roid, would look way cooler. (Unless I've got it wrong and the plastic is just your working toolbox)

2Ton46

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Re: Project Roid
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2017, 03:24:16 PM »
Unfortunately the plastic is the box that is mounted, it was free.  I don't have a metal one handy that will hold the crank, but I'll keep a lookout for one.  I don't really like the plastic either, but it is better than nothing, and might look a lot better with some paint.

https://youtu.be/0mcco8VgcTg

This should be the link to the short video of the project.

I certainly understand the keep it simple aspect. I'd probably do things a little different if it was my only and primary power source.

38ac

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Re: Project Roid
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2017, 04:22:23 PM »
Yup, that's what happens on a twin, they move around  the center looking from the side with a horizontal axis or an up and down hop. If you keep adding wieght in an effort to fix that movement  thet begin to move around the same axis point in a vertical line (move sideways)
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vdubnut62

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Re: Project Roid
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2017, 01:23:34 AM »
Love the 46! Had a 47 KB7 International with the roll out windshield, pretty sweet except for the bugs it scooped up! Currently have a 68 C-50 with a dump, last year for the 327 engine.  Like the roid, keep it up.

Ron in TN.
"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."   Plato.

"Remember, every time a child is responsibly introduced to the best tools for the protection of freedoms, a liberal weeps for the safety of a criminal." Anonymous