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Author Topic: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab  (Read 10211 times)

38ac

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #150 on: September 06, 2018, 11:49:04 AM »
Bob,
 I left it out of my other post because things get to wordy and thus hard to follow but my next suggestion was going to be to push the bushings back out and then fit them to the housings so they slide in half way by hand at room temps,,but you have figured most of that out ;)  What happens when you have to chill them to get them in the housings is the ID also shrinks. The when you place them home they cant grow back and the ID then is below spec. I have had several India bushings that are just plain too large on the OD. Bottom line is if the bushing wont slide in half way at room temps with hand pressure the cause needs to be fixed. The other thing that happens is if the bushings are installed with the clocking off just a bit the stay bolt then pushes on the bushing and causes a bind. The stay bolts must screw all the way in with the fingers!. The check is to loosen them, if your crank frees up you found your problem.

Shimming the bushing inward will work if yo dou a good job of making the shim. Silicone will work fine, actually better than a gasket,, or is it a joint?? 8)

Butch
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 11:50:36 AM by 38ac »
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ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #151 on: September 06, 2018, 12:11:39 PM »
Thanks Butch for all your help. I very much appreciate it. I also very much doubt your claim to being IQ challenged, everything you have posted makes perfect sense to me, maybe we share the same intellectual disability or, more likely we are OK and the rest of the population are just ignorant f*ckwits!  :laugh:

I will post more as time allows,

Bob

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #152 on: September 07, 2018, 09:42:40 AM »
Well Folks, while I have been struggling to get my new crankshaft and bearings freed up I noticed a lot of nasty black crap accumulating under the new crankshaft. (See photo)

I couldn`t work out where this sh1t was coming from as I have cleaned all original parts and been scrupulous about avoiding dirt while fitting new white metal bearings. It turns out that it is casting sand and slag left on the new crankshaft. This stuff has no place in a crankcase so I set about removing it from the crank. Several hours with files, grinders, wire brushes and etc. It is now free of nasty sh1t that will contaminate my oil and damage my bearings. (see photo) I strongly recommend that anyone fitting a new crankshaft descale it before assembly and then paint it to prevent contaminants entering your lubricant. (See photo)

I also managed to press out the bush bearing and refit it with a shim behind it. Once the paint has dried I will fit the crankshaft and housings and check the end float. Looking for 5 thou, fingers crossed I got the maths right.

Bob






38ac

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #153 on: September 07, 2018, 11:27:50 AM »
or, more likely we are OK and the rest of the population are just ignorant f*ckwits!  :laugh:

Bob

Bob

I will go with that  ;D , get ready to dodge heavy objects thrown our way!

Actually I have come to the conclusion that I have an attention disorder of sort. I read along and when things get going 7 different ways I absorb none of it, on topic or not.

Back to your crankshaft woes many years ago prior to owning my very first Indian engine I read a LOT of old postings and looked at all the photos came to the conclusion that by and large filth was the reason people were seeing short life from Indian engines while owners were trying to blame other things making up all sorts of "fixes" when indeed they were just walking circles around the main problem that was smacking them in the face.   And to tell you the truth nothing since has deterred me from that opinion with my India engine experience now approaching 100 engines total.  The CS type engine is not highly stressed thus it doesn't require space age materials or lubricants to live long and prosper but engines no matter how slow they run will NOT tolerate ANY sand and slag circulating PERIOD. The sooner an engine man gets that firmly planted between his ears the closer he is to having and engine that will live.  Yes there are occasional parts failures and we have to deal with poor assembly practices and with things such as the idler gear positioning but to deal with all that and not thoroughly clean and coat the engine is just wasted time, effort and money IMO.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 11:32:21 AM by 38ac »
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BruceM

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #154 on: September 07, 2018, 04:13:24 PM »
During the heyday of US Listeroid importing, few, including myself, were willing to accept that a complete strip down and refinish of the crankcase was necessary, as some importers were insisting that that was unnecessary and overkill by perfectionists. 

Completely delusional baloney to increase sales, I'm now quite sure after just 2 engines.

Thanks, 38AC, for stating it so clearly:

'not thoroughly clean and coat the engine is just wasted time, effort and money IMO"


ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #155 on: September 14, 2018, 09:55:31 AM »
Well Guys and Girls, I once again got a bit done on the old iron. Having checked the run out in the new crankshaft I am convinced that the new bushes are a fraction too tight. I have scrapped the bushes a touch and everything now turns freely. Perhaps a little tighter than I would like, so I intend to hook it up to an electric motor and run it in on the bench, a couple of hours with an oil change after should flush out any crap and ensure good longevity.

Sadly the keyways on the new crankshaft are about a half inch shorter than the original. This has made it impossible to refit the oil thrower rings as per the original. I have had to file off the lugs that located into the keyways and then set them with medium strength Loctite.

Flywheels have now been fitted, with an anti seize compound. Because the keyways are shorter I have had to shorten the gib keys and file a radius on the leading edges.

So now I need to address the issues with the camshaft and idler gear. The idler gear itself looks to be OK but does not mesh well with the pinion on the crankshaft. I will be turning up a new spigot with an offset as per 38ac`s instructions on the WOK. I need to know how to guesstimate the correct offset.

The camshaft is badly worn at the oil pump/injector end (lubrication issues) however the other end that runs in a steel bush is serviceable. I dry assembled that end of the shaft (see photo) and found 20 thou of end float in the old bush. I ordered a new bush, when it arrived it was of such poor quality that I wouldn`t dream of fitting it. It is also 25 thou shorter than the original, worn, item and takes the end float out to 45 thou. I am guessing that the correct end float is between 5 and 10 thou as per the crankshaft. Dieselspanner did a fine job of making new bushes, so I intend to follow his advice. I have a piece of 1.25" diameter cast iron for one end and an undersized oilite bush for the other end. I will turn down the worn end of the camshaft and then turn the Oilite bush to fit.

I am guessing that the important issue when doing this work is to ensure that the cam gear aligns well with the idler gear and then dimension the new steel bush to keep it aligned, clearly too much end float in the camshaft will also impact on the accuracy of the governor assembly and how accurately the engine maintains RPM under load. Advice please.

I also ordered a new cast iron cover for the non injector end of the camshaft. The new cover looked fine on the outside but was full of casting sand inside. It has now been cleaned and painted inside and out.

Info on end float please,

Bob



glort

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #156 on: September 14, 2018, 03:11:03 PM »

Looks great already, Sound's like it's going to be way better than anything that ever left the factory.
Excellent work Bob.

dieselspanner

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #157 on: September 14, 2018, 05:35:11 PM »
I gotta 'fess up here, it weren't me wot made the bearings for the cam shaft, In WAS me that shamelessly copied Ed Dee's method of reeming out the hole in the crankcase and using a bush with an offset hole to move the idler bolt into the best position 'tho.......

Cheers
Stef


Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #158 on: September 14, 2018, 10:57:56 PM »
Sorry Stef, I`m getting you confused with Dieselsmoker. Thanks for fessing up.
I`ll check out Ed Dee`s offset bush approach.

Bob

EdDee

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #159 on: September 15, 2018, 08:44:47 AM »
Bwahaha..... Who uses my name in vain.... Who summoned the dark lord?

To measure the clearance.... aah..... forget it.... Ream the hole as large as you are comfortable with, machine up a piece of shaft to fit it snugly, cut off a suitable length and bore an offset to match your pin diameter .... guess it for the first one... if it is too tight, make another slightly less offset, too loose, go the other way.... within 2 or 3 tries you should be happy...

Maybe I was just lucky, but after an hour or 2 of making notes, calculation and measuring... well I just eyeballed it and got it more than satisfactory on second bush...

Ed
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ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #160 on: September 15, 2018, 09:34:17 AM »
Oh sh1t, didn`t intend to summon the Dark Lord. Which version are we talking about? The biblical scary demon, J R R Tolkein  Mordor variety or the regular J K Rowling  Harry Potter type. Should I be scared or just get on with building the engine?  :laugh:

I like the simplicity of an offset bush, coupled with 3bac`s offset spigot we could have a completely adjustable setup which could be regularly adjusted during routine servicing.

Bob

listard-jp2

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #161 on: September 15, 2018, 01:36:33 PM »
I ordered a new INDIAN bush, when it arrived it was of such poor quality that I wouldn`t dream of fitting it.

They always are :laugh:

The genuine item can be bought from here at a very reasonable price:

http://www.realdiesels.co.uk/listerparts2.html

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #162 on: September 16, 2018, 08:50:50 AM »
Well now I am totally confused. Today I dry assembled the cam shaft and fitted it. I aligned the governor sprocket with the idler gear and I have 75 thou of end float using the old worn components. Could the end bush and keeper have worn that much or am I missing something? I realize that there is little or no lubrication to the mating surfaces at the non injector pump end but 75 thou?

I am intending to turn up a new steel bush for this end of the camshaft but am concerned that moving the cam this far, to reduce the end float, will offset the cam lobes too much. Thoughts please.

Bob

EdDee

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #163 on: September 16, 2018, 06:13:54 PM »
Offset on the cam lobes by up to about 2mm either way is normally not a major problem. Look at the other end of the cam shaft to make sure that the ip roller and oil pump are about centre, or not hanging off the end of their cam... you can reduce the end float by Counterboring the non ip side's camshaft end washer/retaining cap slightly, if yours has one.. on my roid, there was a small washer between the end cap and the cam shaft to give enough clearance....about 90thou or so... I removed the offending washer and found that the end cap was binding on the bushing, so relieved it a bit to give about 5 to 10 thou....
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ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #164 on: September 16, 2018, 10:27:36 PM »
Thanks Ed, I`ll reassemble the whole camshaft today and fit it. I`ll check the alignment between the gears and the IP roller and then measure the end float at the other end. I should then be able to work out the dimensions for the new bush aiming for 5 to 10 thou clearance. My Dursley Lister does not have a shim washer to set the end float, I suspect that was an Indian modification to allow for their greater manufacturing tolerances.

I`ll let you know what I find.

Bob