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Author Topic: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab  (Read 50674 times)

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #120 on: June 25, 2018, 11:13:07 PM »
Hi Glort, lots of progress on Bromiliad house for the wife. No progress on CS, praying for rain so I can take a break from digging holes and leveling ground and get back to building engines.

Happy Wife=Happy life. :laugh:

Bob


ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #121 on: August 02, 2018, 11:59:25 AM »
Well Guys, still no progress on the CS rebuild, sadly I`m back to filling in forms and emailing BS to insurance companies that don`t give a sh1t about my health or well being, only the share holders and the annual bonus they get for fending off anyone like me trying to making a claim. Got to go for another series of medical assessments to prove that I`m not real well, all at my expense of course.
If these idiots had paid me $20 an hour for the time I have wasted filling in the forms and traveling to their preferred doctors I could be retired by now! No wonder I am on anti-depressants and my Wife is about to have a nervous breakdown.

I am seriously considering refusing to comply with anymore of their requests, if they want to psychoanalise me or check out my physical health why do I have to travel hundreds of kilometers each time at my expense? These people earn a fortune why can`t they come to see me?

To add insult to injury the NSW firearms registry have just decided that I am a danger to myself and others because I am on anti-depressant medications. I am neither homicidal or suicidal but if these shiny arsed insurance/government C U Next Tuesdays  continue to push my buttons I may well go Postal Worker. The really stupid thing is that I am no longer legally allowed to own a firearm, so I have transferred ownership to my wife who has a fire arms license (cost me $30). My guns are in the the same gun cabinet, in the same house and the keys are still hidden in the same place. A huge result for public safety and a big win for the revenue collection service!

If you read in the papers that some maniac has decided to shoot up a whole bunch of insurance companies. government agencies and lawyers officers It might well be me. If it isn`t me I applaud the poor sods who got driven to do it by the companies and agencies that are supposed to cover their backs!

Rant over, until the morning when the BS starts again,

Bob

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #122 on: August 27, 2018, 09:28:40 AM »
Well Guys I finally got to spend an hour on my rebuild yesterday, rain stopped everything else.

Could someone please explain the disparity in the geometry of the original Dursley governor linkage on the right and the new replacement on the left. What effect, if any, is this likely to have on the performance/regulation?

The only reason I ordered a replacement is that there is a large flat spot on the governor follower shown in the second photo, perhaps it`s meant to be there.

Bob

mikenash

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #123 on: August 27, 2018, 10:35:57 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4otiDKDiyk

With thanks to the eminent 38AC

This video will explain

Off the top of my uninformed head I would guess the answer to your question is - "as long as it can be adjusted as per 38AC's video, the apparent disparity won't matter"

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #124 on: August 27, 2018, 11:30:47 AM »
Thanks Mikenash, I`ve watched every video posted by the illustrious 38ac even the ones involving tractors ploughing. I`m sure the new assembly could be adjusted to perform well. I`m just curious as to why they would change the original geometry.

Just to p*ss me off the manufacturer has also reversed the taper on the taper pins so I can`t just swap parts between the two, Original has the pins driven from left to right replacement is from right to left.

I might just swap the governor follower wheel and bin the rest.

Bob

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #125 on: September 05, 2018, 10:54:21 AM »
Well Guys and Gals, we finally got a rainy day so I can play with my man toys in my man shed.

Having read everything from 38ac on the WOK, I decided to fit my new crankshaft and bush bearings.

The first job was to knock off any high spots, dinks and file off the key way edges on the new crankshaft before fitting the new bush bearings.

The second job was to fit the bushings in the housings. These were a little tight but half an hour in the deep freeze and they slid in OK.

The crankshaft, bushes and housings were then assembled with plenty of gaskets.

Problems encountered: first the new crank shaft must be bent as it binds the moment I try to tighten the housings, this will need straightening, advice please.
Second the end float on the crank should be about 6 thou. With no gaskets I still have about 20 thou. I can assemble without gaskets using aircraft gasket sealer. I am considering pressing the bearing bushes back out and fitting a shim between them and the housing to reduce the end float. I can elongate the holes for the locating screws. Thoughts please.

Bob


38ac

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #126 on: September 05, 2018, 12:35:37 PM »
Hi Bob, sorry to have been absent but when things kinda get going 10 different directions in a thread my feeble brain cant keep up and I sorta stay away. Nobodies fault but my own personality quirks combined with low IQ.

I am a bit confused with how you are checking end play if the crankshaft is bound up when you snug the housing bolts?  First thing I would do is get that crankshaft between centers and check it for straightness. If you dont have that capability or have a shop nearby that will check it for you then there are ways to check in in the block but it's kinda dicey.  Because of the tolerances in India gaskets they can get pinched at the bottom when you are assembling and that will lock the crankshaft when you snug  the bolts. When more than a couple is needed it can be a headache to keep them all up on the lip of the main bearing casting while it is being tightened up. It is always best to use fewer and thicker gaskets than a stack of thin ones. the following is going ot get real wordy, sorry for that but trying to get in all the important checks requires it.  A brand new crank at the top of the tolerance along with new bushings at the minimum tolerance can yield .001 clearance and will bind VERY easily if things are not totally straight!! however with .003 to .004 clearance things can be out of whack a bit and it all works out fine. Not knowing where all that stands makes diagnosing your issue kinda difficult.

Recheck both the block and main bearing castings for burrs. Then place the crankshaft in the block and mount one main bearing housing without any shims and tighten the nuts. Now move over  to the other side and shake the crankshaft around to familiarize yourself with how much movement there is both side to side and up and down.  Once that is established  take the other housing and slide it on the crankshaft, again,no shim gaskets. When you get to the block studs it should stop if your not lifting on the crankshaft.  Assuming it stops lift up on the crankshaft to the top of the slop and try to slide the housing inward, it should once more hit the studs. What your trying to establish is that when mounted the housing is more or less in the middle of the slop in the off side bearing.  Assuming that works out OK slide the housing over the studs and up on the piloting ring. Install a couple nuts loosely so it will stay up on the pilot.  Will the crankshaft turn? If so turn it carefully from the other end while watching the loose hosing. Is the housing walking around while you are turning the crankshaft? or does it turn freely partway and then bind? if so you have a bent crank. If that all checks out then begin to snug the nuts on the housing, while checking end play. If you loose end play then you need to add a thick gasket and proceed with snugging the nuts.  Now if you are certain that the crank is straight and you are not bound up at the thrust surfaces and the nuts are tight but  the crankshaft is either stiff to turn or wont turn then the next step is to whack the crankshaft around a bit. Use a hardwood block against the crank a few inched out from the housing and whack it a good one with a 4lb hammer, up ,down and sideways. Do both sides and then try to turn it. I have never seen where this didn't improve things when new main bushings are installed.

Do all this and report back.

Butch
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #127 on: September 06, 2018, 02:23:47 AM »
Thanks Butch. I have followed your advice to the letter and the crankshaft still binds. I am able to tighten everything finger tight and still have the crank rotate. I have checked the run out on the crank with a dial test indicator and it shows 0.03mm (1.1 thou)wobble about 6 inches from the bearing housing. This is probably acceptable and suggests that the crank shaft  is pretty straight.

I think you have probably hit the nail on the head when you say that I have a maximum sized crank and minimum sized bushes, leaving me with only about 1 thou of clearance. That coupled with about 1.1 thou bend in the crank is enough to cause it to bind.

I tightened everything up, without gaskets, and measured the end float with a set of feeler gauges. There is about 25 thou float which is unacceptable. Fortunately only the bearing bush at the cam gear end is going to need to be shimmed as this will give good alignment between the gears Please see photo.

So what are my options? Try to straighten the crank, reduce the size of the crank journals or increase the size of the bushes. Advice please.

Bob

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #128 on: September 06, 2018, 10:22:56 AM »
Hi Guys did a lot of f*cking about with this binding problem today. Pressed the bushes out and looked for high spots on the outside, found a few and fettled them back so they no longer bind. Refitted the bushes in the housings and snugged the nuts, still binding very slightly.

Applied a little engineers blue to the bush bearings and crank, scrapped the high spots and I think things are looking OK, still a little tighter than I would like but should run in OK.

I still have a problem with excessive end float of 25 thou without gaskets, so I have cut a shim from 20 thou aluminium (please see photo). I intend to fit this between the bush and the housing to reduce end float to around 5 thou. I will have to elongate the locating screw hole but that should be easy with a round needle file. I am considering using a couple of drops of Loctite on this bush to ensure it never moves.

I will have to fit the housings without gaskets, any recommendations for a liquid gasket that will form a good seal? I have used loctite aviation gasket sealer in the past with good results.

Thoughts please,

Bob

dieselspanner

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #129 on: September 06, 2018, 11:11:03 AM »
Hi Bob

I'd use bathroom sealant, in 'Transparent', wipe off the excess and no one will ever know, plenty good enough up to 100 + degrees. As the CS is designed to run with negative crankcase pressure you could probably get away with nothing at all.


Cheers Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #130 on: September 06, 2018, 11:44:39 AM »
Thanks Stef, I have used silicon sealants on gearbox housings in the past, with good results provided the mating surfaces are clean. Wish I could find a source for Hylomar here in Australia, it never let me down.

Bob

38ac

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #131 on: September 06, 2018, 11:49:04 AM »
Bob,
 I left it out of my other post because things get to wordy and thus hard to follow but my next suggestion was going to be to push the bushings back out and then fit them to the housings so they slide in half way by hand at room temps,,but you have figured most of that out ;)  What happens when you have to chill them to get them in the housings is the ID also shrinks. The when you place them home they cant grow back and the ID then is below spec. I have had several India bushings that are just plain too large on the OD. Bottom line is if the bushing wont slide in half way at room temps with hand pressure the cause needs to be fixed. The other thing that happens is if the bushings are installed with the clocking off just a bit the stay bolt then pushes on the bushing and causes a bind. The stay bolts must screw all the way in with the fingers!. The check is to loosen them, if your crank frees up you found your problem.

Shimming the bushing inward will work if yo dou a good job of making the shim. Silicone will work fine, actually better than a gasket,, or is it a joint?? 8)

Butch
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 11:50:36 AM by 38ac »
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #132 on: September 06, 2018, 12:11:39 PM »
Thanks Butch for all your help. I very much appreciate it. I also very much doubt your claim to being IQ challenged, everything you have posted makes perfect sense to me, maybe we share the same intellectual disability or, more likely we are OK and the rest of the population are just ignorant f*ckwits!  :laugh:

I will post more as time allows,

Bob

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #133 on: September 07, 2018, 09:42:40 AM »
Well Folks, while I have been struggling to get my new crankshaft and bearings freed up I noticed a lot of nasty black crap accumulating under the new crankshaft. (See photo)

I couldn`t work out where this sh1t was coming from as I have cleaned all original parts and been scrupulous about avoiding dirt while fitting new white metal bearings. It turns out that it is casting sand and slag left on the new crankshaft. This stuff has no place in a crankcase so I set about removing it from the crank. Several hours with files, grinders, wire brushes and etc. It is now free of nasty sh1t that will contaminate my oil and damage my bearings. (see photo) I strongly recommend that anyone fitting a new crankshaft descale it before assembly and then paint it to prevent contaminants entering your lubricant. (See photo)

I also managed to press out the bush bearing and refit it with a shim behind it. Once the paint has dried I will fit the crankshaft and housings and check the end float. Looking for 5 thou, fingers crossed I got the maths right.

Bob






38ac

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #134 on: September 07, 2018, 11:27:50 AM »
or, more likely we are OK and the rest of the population are just ignorant f*ckwits!  :laugh:

Bob

Bob

I will go with that  ;D , get ready to dodge heavy objects thrown our way!

Actually I have come to the conclusion that I have an attention disorder of sort. I read along and when things get going 7 different ways I absorb none of it, on topic or not.

Back to your crankshaft woes many years ago prior to owning my very first Indian engine I read a LOT of old postings and looked at all the photos came to the conclusion that by and large filth was the reason people were seeing short life from Indian engines while owners were trying to blame other things making up all sorts of "fixes" when indeed they were just walking circles around the main problem that was smacking them in the face.   And to tell you the truth nothing since has deterred me from that opinion with my India engine experience now approaching 100 engines total.  The CS type engine is not highly stressed thus it doesn't require space age materials or lubricants to live long and prosper but engines no matter how slow they run will NOT tolerate ANY sand and slag circulating PERIOD. The sooner an engine man gets that firmly planted between his ears the closer he is to having and engine that will live.  Yes there are occasional parts failures and we have to deal with poor assembly practices and with things such as the idler gear positioning but to deal with all that and not thoroughly clean and coat the engine is just wasted time, effort and money IMO.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 11:32:21 AM by 38ac »
Collector and horder of about anything diesel