Puppeteer

Author Topic: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab  (Read 4741 times)

AdeV

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 374
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #90 on: January 10, 2018, 04:35:59 PM »
Thanks Dieselspanner. Still hoping someone on the forum can tell me is it`s safe to skim 30 to 40 thou of the cylinder head. I should be able to shim up the cylinder to achieve a suitable bump clearance.


I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be safe - although that's quite a skim (nearly 1mm @ 40 thou). Does it really need that much? Main changes would be: Increased compression due to smaller combustion chamber; possibly you might need to recess the valves by a similar amount to avoid striking them with the piston, although IIRC the piston doesn't come that close to kissing the head in a Lister anyway? And again IIRC (haven't looked for a while), it's a flat head?

Skimming the top/bottom of the barrel would be better, if that cures your issue; the barrel can be shimmed with copper shims as appropriate.
Cheers!
Ade.
--------------
1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

glort

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1397
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2018, 05:05:36 AM »

Any increase in compression is a good one.

Don't think the valves on these things are near an interference fit.
Bring the thing up to TDC and push down on a valve and see how much movement there is. Pretty sure even like that you'll get more than 1mm on these things.

starfire

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #92 on: January 11, 2018, 05:27:28 AM »
Ummmm no, not always, Compression only needs to be enough to cause ignition via the heat produced. Any more than this actually reduces power output, as much of the developed power is used to compress the next power stroke. My 3.5hp Lister is very much more capable when running with the COV out, and will struggle with the same fixed load when the COV is wound in. Unlike a petrol engine, the cylinder pressure is largely constant over the power stroke as fuel, and combustion continues as the injector squirts, fuel burns and is available over a longer time. The same high compression benefits are not so pronounced with a diesel. Turbocharging a diesel does produce more power, not  because of any raised compression, but because there is more air to allow a longer burn.

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3099
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #93 on: January 11, 2018, 03:47:43 PM »

Any increase in compression is a good one.

Don't think the valves on these things are near an interference fit.
Bring the thing up to TDC and push down on a valve and see how much movement there is. Pretty sure even like that you'll get more than 1mm on these things.

Be careful about that valve clearance assumption when setting up a new engine and figuring your valve lash. On our 18/1 engines it is possible to hit the valves with the piston crown.

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

ajaffa1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #94 on: January 12, 2018, 11:28:57 AM »
Hi Guys, I put a straight edge across the surface of the head and measured the divot in the head at 30 thou, so a skim of 30 thou plus is inevitable. The valve heads are circa 100 thou below that so reducing the head surface would bring them back to circa 60 thou below the head surface, this would be well within tolerance and shouldn't cause interference with the piston.
I guess we will just have to try it and see what happens, I`ll let you know.

Bob

mike90045

  • Mendocino Metro
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1169
  • Mmmm BBQ
    • View Profile
    • Mikes Solar PV page
Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #95 on: January 12, 2018, 07:07:21 PM »
Hi Guys, I put a straight edge across the surface of the head and measured the divot in the head at 30 thou, so a skim of 30 thou plus is inevitable. The valve heads are circa 100 thou below that so reducing the head surface would bring them back to circa 60 thou below the head surface, this would be well within tolerance and shouldn't cause interference with the piston.
I guess we will just have to try it and see what happens, I`ll let you know.

Bob

Is the divot in the gasket sealing surface?  is there enough meat around it the gasket would still seal ?  30thou is pretty radical

ajaffa1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #96 on: January 13, 2018, 11:31:17 AM »
Hi Mike 90045.
Sadly the corrosion/wear has taken a chunk out of the gasket surface. It isn`t as bad as the 30 thou in the compression zone and could probably be removed with a 15 thou skim. I don`t know what this engine was run on but I suspect that something like hydraulic oil was used which would explain the excessive wear to the piston crown and head. It could just be that it`s done a lot of hours but the lack of wear on the crankshaft suggests otherwise.

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3099
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #97 on: January 13, 2018, 02:04:41 PM »
Hi Mike 90045.
Sadly the corrosion/wear has taken a chunk out of the gasket surface. It isn`t as bad as the 30 thou in the compression zone and could probably be removed with a 15 thou skim. I don`t know what this engine was run on but I suspect that something like hydraulic oil was used which would explain the excessive wear to the piston crown and head. It could just be that it`s done a lot of hours but the lack of wear on the crankshaft suggests otherwise.
Soft cast iron will really erode quickly under severe service, it also does not do very well with constant water contact. The OEM crankshaft journals will live well beyond the rest of the engine unless they are subjected to a lot of dirt in the oil or water contamination. I have built a lot of them up from units left out in the weather for decades... cylinders and heads almost always replaced - bottom ends usually survived with minimal damages. The quality of steel and hardening of original parts is of very high quality.

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

Apogee

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #98 on: January 14, 2018, 12:07:41 AM »
Ajaffa1,

Beautiful job so far!  Perfect choice for a rehab project.  As Glort pointed out it's 99% mental and I'm sure you will be back to normal soon.  One thing to keep in mind is nerve damage takes a very long time to heal.  It's not something that is gone is a few weeks.  A year or two would be an appropriate timeframe to expect.  Having suffered a neck broken in multiple places, you could easily have suffered cord damage that will take much longer than expected to heal.  It's a pain in the back side, but it is how it is.  You might ask your doc about supplementing with vitamin B because the nerve sheaths are primarily made up of the stuff.

Regarding your Lister, what did you end up using to get the crankcase so clean?  I have multiple old engine projects to tackle at some point so the knowledge would be very helpful.

Again, beautiful work!

Wishing you the very best in your recovery and an excellent 2018!

Kind regards,

Steve

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3099
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #99 on: January 14, 2018, 02:22:34 AM »
Sodium Hydroxide - common Lye. They use the stuff in hot tanks for cleaning diesel (and automotive) engine blocks. Just mix the powder with water and heat to about 180F. Immerse your block for a few hours, or overnight. It comes out nearly spotless, minus all oil/paint/loose contaminants. Just a little rinsing and drying is required after that.

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

ajaffa1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #100 on: January 14, 2018, 04:30:36 AM »
Hi Apogee, Dieselgman is right that a good soak in sodium hydroxide solution is the easiest. I sadly don`t have such a tank so I used a mixture of industrial degreaser and caustic soda, followed up with a pressure washer. Took a couple of goes to get it clean.

Bob

glort

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1397
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #101 on: January 14, 2018, 10:45:21 AM »
Love Caustic, It cleans nearly everything and what it don't clean it dissolves so problem gone either way.  :P

My father was using this expensive degreaser/ Cleaner in his workshop.  I caught a wiff and said I know what that is. looked on the label, sure enough, KOH and some Dye.  Brought him up a couple of kilos next visit and mixed some up. Bit stronger than the bought stuff.
Very Happy chappy.  Least till I told him what  25Kg bag cost and how many 5L bottles of soloution it would make.

Not sure he was happy about how much he'd save on the stuff in the future or how worried he was about the small fortune he'd needlessly paid for the stuff for years in the past?

ajaffa1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #102 on: January 27, 2018, 09:51:14 AM »
G`Day Gentlemen and Women,
I am sorry I have stalled on my rebuild but doctors(and Wife`s) orders are not to be messed with. Stupid bugger decided not to treat the disk in my neck that is pressing on my spinal cord causing pain in hands and arms, instead he tried to treat the symptoms with Lyrica. For those who have never experienced this drug, it is used to treat epilepsy and nerve pain. You start with a dose of 25Mg per day and work up to 600Mg per day. It is addictive and causes mental instability, suicide and heart failure, it is a treatment of last resort. At a dose of 600Mg it is going to cost $50 per day. I wish I had a video of the look on my doctors face when I pointed out to him that I have already had one heart attack and am seeing a councillor for mental health issues and would rather have the pain than become a zombie.

So back to my build, I have decided that this CS will be coupled to a three phase head to provide power for a lathe and milling machine. I will have to build it a brick enclosure next to my ST2. When I built the enclosure for the ST2 I dug out a deep hole and poured a concrete slab at the bottom, I then used a 100Ltr plastic dustbin as a former and poured a reinforced concrete chamber. This was connected to 8 meters of 3" underground flexible ducting(also set in concrete) which runs down hill to an exhaust. I later cast a concrete slab over this chamber and my ST2 vents into it. (see photo) It is totally silent.

My question is this: would it be ok to rig the CS to vent into the same exhaust system or should I build a separate underground  exhaust?

Bob


BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1919
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #103 on: January 27, 2018, 05:05:21 PM »
I'm a fan of underground exhaust systems myself since we did one for my neighbor's propane converted DES 8/1.  Zero exhaust pulse noise due to cooling of exhaust in the earth is a wonderful thing.  We used the "leach field" type which also pretty much removes any exhaust odor as well.

My concern for a two engines in one earth exhaust system is the back-pressure and exhaust leaks in the non-running engine.  It seems to me that if it is tight and well sealed at the joints (I use high temp silicone on all exhaust joints in the engine room.) , it should be OK.  Designing in some sort of way to close off the exhaust to the other engine would be helpful for when one engine must be serviced.  I'm not sure how I'd do that.







 
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 05:08:01 PM by BruceM »

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3099
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #104 on: January 27, 2018, 05:17:37 PM »
Provide an open outlet port of greater diameter (lesser flow resistance) than the two incoming pipes and backflow should not be an issue.

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...