Author Topic: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab  (Read 10827 times)

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2017, 01:22:41 PM »
Nice rehabilitation project!
These engines all end up looking more or less the same after years of neglect - but I never grow tired watching them come back to life. Keep posting those updates.

Oh my word dieselgman... 10 engines... I feel like I need a break after doing just one   :o  ;D
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

mikenash

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2017, 03:31:44 PM »
That liner will probably continue to serve if you want it to?  As long as there's nothing "lippy" for rings to catch on?  You gotta think "600 RPM" not "automotive" IMHO

You could certainly give it a scuff-up and put it back together and try?  All that's lost is a couple hours work

Injector etc?  Maybe throw the whole injector/linkage shit in a bucket of diesel and while it's soaking have a look on Old Timer Engines to see how cheap all that stuff is and just buy a new pump, lines, linkage & injector -then when you go to start it you will know all that stuff is good and when you get a solid, distinctive "CRINK" from the injector you'll know you are good

Just my $0.02


dieselgman

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2017, 05:50:11 PM »
I concur on the fuel injection stuff... both pumps and injectors readily available brand new MICO Bosch and their quality is good. The OEM pump does have a drilled shaft for the excess fuel (overload) pawl... maybe worth recovering an old pump for that feature.

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

basewindow

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2017, 08:19:43 PM »
Spent about two weeks trying to bring my original pump back to life. Ended up just buying a new Bosch, works perfectly. It has a smaller inlet for the fuel so make sure you get the new pipe with it. I noticed it didnt have that pawl, but it doesnt seem to effect anything. What was it supposed to do?
1953 CS Lister 3.5hp, 1938? Bamford SD1 3.5hp, 1962 Fordson Super Dexta, 1969 International 434.

starfire

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2017, 08:31:12 PM »
It forces the rack to full on, overfueling the engine for  cold starting, rather like a choke in a carburettor.  Very few owners use it.

basewindow

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2017, 10:57:41 PM »
Ah got it. Never took notice of how the pawl fitted before i removed it to try to fix my pump. So the pawl was normally in the down position restricting movement and up for starting? Think I put mine back on upside down when i put it back together so it fell downwards. Couldnt work out how pushing it up and restricting the movement helped it to start, it was more like pushing it to the off position. Why doesnt the new pump use one?
1953 CS Lister 3.5hp, 1938? Bamford SD1 3.5hp, 1962 Fordson Super Dexta, 1969 International 434.

veggie

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2017, 01:12:08 AM »
That picture at the start of the thread is a beauty !
Very nice unit.

(lister envy) :-\

Veggie
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ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2017, 11:07:17 AM »
That picture at the start of the thread is a beauty !
Very nice unit.

(lister envy) :-\

Veggie
Hope you are talking about the ST2 not the CS. looked like this when I got it(see photo). The reason it now looks ok is that dieselgman helped me find the parts. Don`t want to go into the cost but it probably explains why he has more than one CS to rebuild this winter. Only joking, prices were very reasonable.
That liner will probably continue to serve if you want it to?  As long as there's nothing "lippy" for rings to catch on?  You gotta think "600 RPM" not "automotive" IMHO

You could certainly give it a scuff-up and put it back together and try?  All that's lost is a couple hours work

Injector etc?  Maybe throw the whole injector/linkage shit in a bucket of diesel and while it's soaking have a look on Old Timer Engines to see how cheap all that stuff is and just buy a new pump, lines, linkage & injector -then when you go to start it you will know all that stuff is good and when you get a solid, distinctive "CRINK" from the injector you'll know you are good

Just my $0.02


Thanks Mike, sadly it has a very profound lip. A re-bore to 20 thou might just about eliminate it. Still thinking about having it sleeved. Might be cheaper to import a new cylinder but have my doubts about the Indian Listeroid parts.
Think I`ll take your advice on fuel injection components: dump in a bath of diesel and leave for a long time. Its what I did with the ST2 and it worked a treat. I still had to replace the injector nozzles but everything else cleaned up real nice.
I concur on the fuel injection stuff... both pumps and injectors readily available brand new MICO Bosch and their quality is good. The OEM pump does have a drilled shaft for the excess fuel (overload) pawl... maybe worth recovering an old pump for that feature.

dieselgman
Thanks dieselgman, where I live never drops below freezing so no problems with start up all year round.

Nice rehabilitation project!
These engines all end up looking more or less the same after years of neglect - but I never grow tired watching them come back to life. Keep posting those updates.

Oh my word dieselgman... 10 engines... I feel like I need a break after doing just one   :o  ;D

Thanks for the encouragement dieselsmoker. Read all of your posts on your rebuild. A lot of skills and innovations,

So how did the sick old git go today?
I managed to strip everything except the crankshaft and one flywheel. Managed to snap the head off the gib key, still no movement in the key. The crankshaft on this side has a lot of pitting from corrosion. Suspect that water has got into keyway and seized everything solid. Going to weld a length of 1/2 inch threaded bar to the remaining gib key and try to pull it off with a piece of tube 3 inch and 1/2 inch steel plate with a hole in it. Will post photos tomorrow. Could be some swearing if it don`t work. Anyone know how much heat I can safely put into the shaft and flywheel without damaging stuff?
I have a question regarding the profiles on the camshaft. The inlet/exhaust cam lobes are clean and nicely rounded, the cam lobe that drives the oil pump and injector pump has a different profile, looks worn to me(see photo) advice please.

Thanks guys
Bob
 

Samo

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2017, 11:45:00 AM »
 hi Bob, yes I agree the profile looks wrong, no surprise as it's an area that gets little oil, well compared to the rest of the crankcase. in my 12/2 the governor pins and the cam follower wheels on the oil pump lifter were also very worn, I wouldn't be surprised if yours are similar....

Samo
Lister CS 12/2 & JKSON 10/1 Listeroid

dieselgman

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2017, 02:52:21 PM »
The fuel pump lobe has a completely different profile from the valve lobes... yours looks fairly normal from what I can see in your photo.

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2017, 11:05:03 AM »
Hi Guys, didn`t get as much done today as I had hoped.
hi Bob, yes I agree the profile looks wrong, no surprise as it's an area that gets little oil, well compared to the rest of the crankcase. in my 12/2 the governor pins and the cam follower wheels on the oil pump lifter were also very worn, I wouldn't be surprised if yours are similar....

Samo
Thanks Samo. the governor pins on mine are also worn(see photo), not as bad as yours. I haven`t measured them but think they have an original od of 1/4 inch. has anyone tried reaming the governors weights and camgear to take a slightly bigger pin. maybe with an increase in the lubrication hole? Any one know what these are made of, I was considering ordering some silver steel, cutting to length, drilling holes for split pins before hardening and tempering.
Cam follower bearing on mine looks ok but I will check it anyway.
The fuel pump lobe has a completely different profile from the valve lobes... yours looks fairly normal from what I can see in your photo.

dieselgman
Thanks dieselgman, I have had a good look and they are very different. inlet and exhaust lobes look ok. anyone know what the lift should be? Are these lobes hardened steel that can be reground or are they disposable case hardened steel?

Jobs done today:
Failed miserably to tackle the  stuck/broken gib key.No suitable welding rods.
managed to decontaminate and strip paint off head, cylinder block and it`s water jacket covers. Got a coat of primmer on them just to keep the heavy nigh time condensation here from causing corrosion.(Yes I know I shouldn`t be painting mating surfaces but I would rather scrape of paint than rust). See photos attached.


Samo

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2017, 08:45:37 PM »
I agree with your approach, make them out of silver steel and harden/temper. I'd only ream the weights and gear if the bore was sloppy, either that or bush it? With mine the pins were very worn, and I replaced the Cam gearwheel because it had broken teeth. The bore through the governor weights in my engine were still pretty good, because there's a lot more material to share the load. So in my case stock pins were good.

For my throttle linkages I made up silver steel pins, bored out the linkages from 3/16 to 5mm on account of the wear. Fiddly but now it's nice and smooth through the full range of travel.
Lister CS 12/2 & JKSON 10/1 Listeroid

starfire

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2017, 06:49:27 AM »
Quick way to repair clevis pins, worn elongated holes etc ,  bronze them up and redrill.

mikenash

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2017, 07:17:38 AM »

Y'know Jaffa, IMHO I'd give the Indian parts a go . . .

They are agricultural but the machine is agricultural.  I have an Indian head on my CS and I feel OK about it.

There are many quality issues with the Indian engines but I think there may be a consensus here that their export parts are better?  And, I suspect most of the probs with Indian motors are fixed by good set-up not by dealing with deficiencies in the components so much

The basic architecture of the machines and their low RPMs makes them very tolerant

I looked into boring/sleeving my cylinder and i suspect NZ/Oz situations might be similar with machine shops etc etc?  It was gonna cost around $400-ish to bore, press in a sleeve, re-machine bore to suit piston-plus-clearance etc.  That would have left me with a cast sleeve, necessitating different rings.  In the end I said to myself "It was going OK before so it will probably continue to go OK" and it has to date.  I bought another whole CS for $500 so that gives me options

Also, FWIW I like the look of the new injector/pump components I have bought off Rob and. although the linkage bits look crude, they are cheap-as-chips and i think they can be made to serve well once minus all the green paint and set up OK

Just my $0.02

Also, FWIW I have heard of folks making a bit of a "weir" of plasticine or similar around the perimieter of the broken gib key to allow them to make a "puddle" of INOX or other preferred penetrating oil above the level of the top of the key, and leaving it to work its way through over time and topping-up as required.  Personally I have found gentle heat and then penetrating oil after it has cooled right down to often be successful as I think the heat encourages a minor differential expansion/contraction of the different metals of the cast wheel, the steel Gib key and the rust/oxides in between/around them.  I also reckon, again FWIW, that heat from a MAPP gas torch or similar is pretty safe as it takes a lot to heat up he hub area of one of those wheels

Good luck

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2017, 08:38:53 AM »
I agree with your approach, make them out of silver steel and harden/temper. I'd only ream the weights and gear if the bore was sloppy, either that or bush it? With mine the pins were very worn, and I replaced the Cam gearwheel because it had broken teeth. The bore through the governor weights in my engine were still pretty good, because there's a lot more material to share the load. So in my case stock pins were good.

For my throttle linkages I made up silver steel pins, bored out the linkages from 3/16 to 5mm on account of the wear. Fiddly but now it's nice and smooth through the full range of travel.
Thanks again Samo, taught I was on the right track. I will probably ream them out to 7mm the next readily available silver steel. Any idea how much clearance would be appropriate, I can buy reamers from China in increments of 0.1mm.
Quick way to repair clevis pins, worn elongated holes etc ,  bronze them up and redrill.
Thanks starfire, very ingenious approach any idea of the likely longevity of this approach. Brass and steel have been used as bearing surfaces for ever.

Y'know Jaffa, IMHO I'd give the Indian parts a go . . .

They are agricultural but the machine is agricultural.  I have an Indian head on my CS and I feel OK about it.

There are many quality issues with the Indian engines but I think there may be a consensus here that their export parts are better?  And, I suspect most of the probs with Indian motors are fixed by good set-up not by dealing with deficiencies in the components so much

The basic architecture of the machines and their low RPMs makes them very tolerant

I looked into boring/sleeving my cylinder and i suspect NZ/Oz situations might be similar with machine shops etc etc?  It was gonna cost around $400-ish to bore, press in a sleeve, re-machine bore to suit piston-plus-clearance etc.  That would have left me with a cast sleeve, necessitating different rings.  In the end I said to myself "It was going OK before so it will probably continue to go OK" and it has to date.  I bought another whole CS for $500 so that gives me options

Also, FWIW I like the look of the new injector/pump components I have bought off Rob and. although the linkage bits look crude, they are cheap-as-chips and i think they can be made to serve well once minus all the green paint and set up OK

Just my $0.02

Also, FWIW I have heard of folks making a bit of a "weir" of plasticine or similar around the perimieter of the broken gib key to allow them to make a "puddle" of INOX or other preferred penetrating oil above the level of the top of the key, and leaving it to work its way through over time and topping-up as required.  Personally I have found gentle heat and then penetrating oil after it has cooled right down to often be successful as I think the heat encourages a minor differential expansion/contraction of the different metals of the cast wheel, the steel Gib key and the rust/oxides in between/around them.  I also reckon, again FWIW, that heat from a MAPP gas torch or similar is pretty safe as it takes a lot to heat up he hub area of one of those wheels

Good luck
Thank you so much Mike, What are the listeroid bores made of? Do they have a high chrome liner so I can use original piston ?(will replace rings) I can always mothball the original cylinder to appease my conscience.
With regards to stuck gib key, I have jacked up that side of the engine and filled the key-way with WD40 I hope it will work it`s way in. Going to pick up welding rods in the morning. Hoping the heat from arc welding a 12 mm stud-rod to the broken key will free things up. I will post photos of the method used in the hope that it mat assist others in the same predicament.
I have checked out the old timer engine website and I have to say that Rob seems to be a very useful mammal to know. I will be contacting him next week with a list of parts.
Bob