blasphemy - woodstoves

[LowGear]

A daughter, mother and grandmother were asked "What helped you the most in the kitchen?"

Daughter - The microwave.
Mother - The dish washer.
Grandmother - running water inside.

My Aunt Gladys only got running hot water in the house in 1963.  She still kept a kettle on the stove for the rest of her life.  When her dad bought the farm in 1910 he quickly made it the first house in Graves Creek to have running water in the house.

Water - That's when the real wars will start.

[starfire]

LG, i agree with you. Was amazed just how close to the wall some US states are with water supply shortages and problems. The likes of your major dams with very low lake levels,  the Hoover dam lake is almost empty now. And many of these dams are getting close to their useby date too I believe.
What rivers that are still working are being polluted from the radiation leakage from Hanford.
Its a real worry.
Here in my area we get 12/15 feet of rain each year consistently, we are very lucky, and most of our electricity generation is by hydro, but many NZ rivers suffer pollution caused by intensive  dairy farming, with major cow shit and fertilizer runoff.
I guess thirst, like hunger are the only human motivators that will  deal to the problem.
Your  recent Orville dam crisis demonstrates just what can be done when everyone pulls in the same direction  with the focus on the end result..... I followed this one with great interest.

[AdeV]

Over here in Blighty I think the problem with water is we have too much of it, rather than too little... Go back 10 or 20 years, and we used to have regular hosepipe bans in the summer; haven't had one of those for years now, we do seem to be suffering major floods every year. We've already had the first newsworthy floods, and looking at the week ahead, it's due to rain every single day for as far as the forecast goes. Still, that will at least match the constant 10 days of rain we've had preceeding it. 

[broncodriver99]

LG, i agree with you. Was amazed just how close to the wall some US states are with water supply shortages and problems. The likes of your major dams with very low lake levels,  the Hoover dam lake is almost empty now. And many of these dams are getting close to their useby date too I believe.
What rivers that are still working are being polluted from the radiation leakage from Hanford.
Its a real worry.
Here in my area we get 12/15 feet of rain each year consistently, we are very lucky, and most of our electricity generation is by hydro, but many NZ rivers suffer pollution caused by intensive  dairy farming, with major cow shit and fertilizer runoff.
I guess thirst, like hunger are the only human motivators that will  deal to the problem.
Your  recent Orville dam crisis demonstrates just what can be done when everyone pulls in the same direction  with the focus on the end result..... I followed this one with great interest.

Let's just say it isn't as bad as the media bobbleheads make it out to be. Most of it is self inflicted and easily preventable/correctable. Orville is a prime example. But...I don't want to babble on or get long winded. I will simply say that irrigating crops in a desert isn't a good idea.

[starfire]

Yes, quite severe mental health issues can be caused by endless overcast and rainy days.  I think it is now a recognized illness, is it called SAD, Seasonal Anxiety Disorder or something? We have just suffered 3 months of overcast and rainy weather too, now we are having  record high temps.... its cold comfort, but you are not alone.
I find it helps to consider the poor buggers living north of the arctic circle enjoying  6 months of darkness right now with a fairly decent wind chill factor to go with it.
To reduce winter heating costs, diesel consumption and low solar panel output, the answer here is probably a warm, cuddly and friendly type woman who enjoys close body contact and can cook really well.
Any mechanical ability would also be  a bonus, and the more endowed examples  would make a welcome distraction and hold our interest over quite long periods of inclement weather.
Perhaps a special section on this forum could help match cold , SAD and hungry off gridders with suitably "hot" female volunteers,  and put the photo upload page to better use? 

[LowGear]

He's Baaaaaaaackkkkkk.

Same old bad guys.  Archie Bunker; eat your heart out. 

Something new?

[AdeV]

The whole " Save water" brainwashing is just another load of crap from the greenwashed do gooders.

Totally agree. That said, we only have one major water distribution network in this country (er, apart from the natural ones - sky & rivers, natch), and it distributes treated potable water. Actually, that's only 1/3rd true: There's also a network of fire hydrants which have a non-potable supply. So when you see sprinklers and hosepipes in the UK, that's "expensive" treated water that's being sprayed around.

The ones who really make me laugh are the "save the planet" types. From what? Alien invasion? Spontaneous dissociation into component molecules/atoms? Asteroid strikes? FFS, the planet's been here for the better part of 5 billion years, it's survived a collision with the moon and countless asteroid strikes over those billions of years, not to mention the comets (which, it's theorised, brought us most of the liquid water which exists on the planet - yes, not only are we drinking dinosaur piss, but it's ALIEN dinosaur piss! Still fancy that cup of coffee? No? Thanks, I'll have it then.


I heard a fascinating theory on a TV programme a few years back; most of Egypt is, as we know, desert. There's a theory that many thousands of years ago, it was in fact lush rainforest. This is not because it was cooler back then, but because it was, in fact, hotter.... the extra heat drove a monsoon system which basically irrigated what is now Sarhara desert, for several weeks/months of the year. The last ice age killed off that system, and (unlike the Indian monsoons) it hasn't yet got hot enough in Egypt to re-start. Wouldn't it be a rich irony if "man-made climate change" ended up greening Egypt? What would the greenwash alarmists say then?

[mikenash]

He's Baaaaaaaackkkkkk.

Same old bad guys.  Archie Bunker; eat your heart out. 

Something new?

No.  Nothing new I don't think

Down here in our small island at the bottom of the world, the politics of water are different to, say, the US

We have enormous volumes of the stuff and it falls from the sky and streams down the rivers and flows out to sea.  In about 90% of New Zealand there's enough rainfall that a pair of 25,000 litre tanks in the backyard, simply catching the rainwater that falls onto the roof of the house, will provide more than enough water for the average family

If you do dumb shit like insisting on washing your car or watering your lawn in the middle of summer you may need a backup supply in some areas . . .

Where it goes wrong is when users are concentrated such as, say, in fertile areas where dairy farming has intensified and everyone wants to take water from the same river or aquifer.  Often only some tens of kilometres away there will be a river flowing thousands of cubic metres a second out to sea - not exactly "wasted" but maybe under-used

The challenge for Regional Councils etc is to balance the needs of the environment with the needs of industry and the wishes of ratepayers, citizens and lobby groups

Not to defend our Australian Archie Bunker, but I have on occasions been lectured by you, ardent, green people about the need to conserve water.  However, where I live now we catch water off the roof in a tank which is nearly always overflowing; and in my Bay of Plenty place the spring that feeds our houses overflows constantly 24/7, forming a little creek that meanders through the properties.  What does it matter if I choose to stand in the shower for as long as I like, flush the toilet as often as I wish, or brush my teeth with running water

It's great that folks want to defend the environment - but it's sad IMHO that some of the "facts" promulgated aren't as good as they might be

[LowGear]

Hey, I've got one of those! 

A water catchment system.  The tank is about 12,000 US Gallons of usable water if you're a pineapple or banana or don't mind a bit of rat piss or bird dung in your morning tea.  I don't drink it because (this is my conjecture and not based on anything other than personal observations and deep thought) I drink chlorine rich water every once in a while and I believe it kills the bacteria in my gut that would get me past the previously mentioned amendments to catchment water once it hits my collector (OK - the roofs) and slithers it's way via the force of gravity and sump pumps to the catchment tank.

You're thinking "What about reverse osmosis filtering and then some chlorine and then a charcoal filter to sweeten it all back to Mother Natures most important thing" - Water.  You're wiling to shower in rat piss amended water?  Or you're going to do the whole think like UK fire hydrants?  Nope, I'm going to spend about $200 a month on county water.  The catchment system is really the foundation of irrigation here and works well during the rainy system.  During the dry season we buy much more county water.

but I have on occasions been lectured by you, ardent, green people about the need to conserve water

  As a member of this greenie club I'm a bit sensitive to my audience when I lecture about anything.  Did you know we have aquifers in the US that pulls water out of the ground that was rain 400 years ago.  In these areas most of the 100, 200 and 300 year water was used up last century?  Water; the single most valuable thing in the universe as far as humans are concerned.

You heard it here!  In fifty years the wars will be over water unless we get the solar powered desalinization projects working.  Perhaps hydrogen will be a by-product for stored energy use.

the planet's been here for the better part of 5 billion years, it's survived a collision with the moon and countless asteroid strikes over those billions of years, not to mention the comets (which, it's theorised, brought us most of the liquid water which exists on the planet - yes, not only are we drinking dinosaur piss, but it's ALIEN dinosaur piss! Still fancy that cup of coffee? No? Thanks, I'll have it then.

  This is a hypothesis.  Not to be confused with a theory.

[LowGear]

Something about paper and trees:

http://www.ecology.com/2011/09/10/paper-chase/

I think your wood stove is fantastic.  When we were burning wood for heat I got totally tired of the square boxes with glass doors welded onto them.  I didn't harvest the extra heat with water storage but did put a thermostat controlled fan behind it and the baseboard heaters squeaked to a stop until the wood ran out in the morning before we got up.  I had replaced the baseboard heaters with "wall furnaces" by that time hence the squeaking.

AND if you're not burning last years wood stack then rethink the whole program.  Flip hamburgers the same amount of time your were harvesting wood and you'll be somewhat ahead and have a career to fall back on when the greenies declare all stove owners to be criminals and start our buy back program.  Today, only legal wood stoves are permitted - it's just the beginning!

[AdeV]

LG,

If water shortage ever becomes a REAL problem in the USA (and I believe it will be, very soon, in Arizona, or is it Texas, or maybe both - mainly because Las Vegas has pretty much drained Lake Mead), then it will become politically expedient to expend taxpayer's money on some massive water system.

Lake Mead is only 300ish miles from the LA coast. A 6ft pipe into the pacific, 300 miles to the hoover dam, solar powered pumps and desalination plants at either end will turn it into freshwater, to be dumped in the lake. Even Las Vegas would struggle to drain the Pacific.... Yes, it will be fearsomely expensive. Yes, there will be lots of green weenies leaping up and down about how 'Vegas should "save water" instead of insanely expensive big industrial solutions; but look at the upside: Loads of jobs during construction, a good number of jobs once it's all up and running, and all the water you could ever drink, ever.

BTW, if that ever happens - I claim patent rights on the idea. The US Government can buy the rights off me for a mere $10,000,000. Reckon that should be enough... Oh, and a Green Card.

[vdubnut62]

LG,

If water shortage ever becomes a REAL problem in the USA (and I believe it will be, very soon, in Arizona, or is it Texas, or maybe both - mainly because Las Vegas has pretty much drained Lake Mead), then it will become politically expedient to expend taxpayer's money on some massive water system.

Lake Mead is only 300ish miles from the LA coast. A 6ft pipe into the pacific, 300 miles to the hoover dam, solar powered pumps and desalination plants at either end will turn it into freshwater, to be dumped in the lake. Even Las Vegas would struggle to drain the Pacific.... Yes, it will be fearsomely expensive. Yes, there will be lots of green weenies leaping up and down about how 'Vegas should "save water" instead of insanely expensive big industrial solutions; but look at the upside: Loads of jobs during construction, a good number of jobs once it's all up and running, and all the water you could ever drink, ever.

BTW, if that ever happens - I claim patent rights on the idea. The US Government can buy the rights off me for a mere $10,000,000. Reckon that should be enough... Oh, and a Green Card.

Ah at last, a man of Vision! I vote to give him Honorary Citizenship, he seems to deserve it more than some of the more "indigent"types with cranial rectosis.
Ron.

[mikenash]

"  AND if you're not burning last years wood stack then rethink the whole program.  Flip hamburgers the same amount of time your were harvesting wood and you'll be somewhat ahead and have a career to fall back on when the greenies declare all stove owners to be criminals and start our buy back program.  Today, only legal wood stoves are permitted - it's just the beginning!  "

Hey LG/Casey we have that here where you're no longer allowed the slow-burn units in town because of the smog.  While it's true that that is mostly because morons burn wet wood, it's a fact you're always gonna have morons, so these days people have heat pumps as they're better than kids with bronchitis etc

Out here in the country it doesn't matter as there's lots of air, bugger-all neighbours, and I only burn "last year's wood" anyway

What i was gonna say, though, is that I got a "code compliance" Council sign-off for my shed when kit was built, and everything I have done since then is un-permitted.  I just take responsibility for my actions and figure I won't build anything that will start fires or electrocute anyone

Rightly or wrongly, there it is

[mikenash]

LG,

If water shortage ever becomes a REAL problem in the USA (and I believe it will be, very soon, in Arizona, or is it Texas, or maybe both - mainly because Las Vegas has pretty much drained Lake Mead), then it will become politically expedient to expend taxpayer's money on some massive water system.

Lake Mead is only 300ish miles from the LA coast. A 6ft pipe into the pacific, 300 miles to the hoover dam, solar powered pumps and desalination plants at either end will turn it into freshwater, to be dumped in the lake. Even Las Vegas would struggle to drain the Pacific.... Yes, it will be fearsomely expensive. Yes, there will be lots of green weenies leaping up and down about how 'Vegas should "save water" instead of insanely expensive big industrial solutions; but look at the upside: Loads of jobs during construction, a good number of jobs once it's all up and running, and all the water you could ever drink, ever.

BTW, if that ever happens - I claim patent rights on the idea. The US Government can buy the rights off me for a mere $10,000,000. Reckon that should be enough... Oh, and a Green Card.

I reckon, joking aside, the physics are sound.  That's because, if it gets so hot that we're short of water, then we'll have enough sunshine to power solar to make amps to run desalinators.  Look at Israel (not that I'd hold them up as a shining example of anything much apart from pragmatism-in-action)

Cheers

[AdeV]

I wasn't joking - I reckon that could be a serious solution, certainly to that particular water shortage. Other places have problems too, which may not respond to that sort of solution - e.g. central Africa.

The best thing is, new technologies are coming which could hugely reduce the power requirements; graphene filters, for example, which allow the water through but not the salt.  Southern California/Arizona/Texas aren't exactly short of sunshine, and solar panels are always improving. Heck, why not make it a 12ft pipe, and drop some freshwater off along the way, create a man-made version of the Nile Delta - mass irrigation on the cheap, more & better farming, more jobs....

The biggest obstacle to overcome is, as it always is, the huge up-front infrastructure cost. It'd have to be a federal project as it's going to be crossing at least one State line, maybe 2 (my knowledge of US geography is a bit shaky, to say the least), but I'd bet if every casino in Las Vegas contributed one day's takings per year, there'd be more than enough cash to pay for the whole damn thing...