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Author Topic: Electronic Govenors  (Read 1986 times)

glort

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Electronic Govenors
« on: November 02, 2017, 02:14:21 AM »


I'm looking for a governor to put on my 5 Cyl Merc Diesel to drove a gen head.

I see there are a lot of electronic controlers around but can't fnd any kits with everything to make them work. I don't know what the systems have to be so that makes thing complicated.

As I understand it, you have the controller, the speed sensor  ( Counts teeth on a gear or ??) and an actuator.
Looking at pics of the controllers I see a function for " Droop". Seems counter intuitive, Don't want the thing to droop or over shoot, want it to stay the same.

Can anyone explain these things to me and give me a bit of a general idea of how they work and how difficult they may be to set up?  Obviously I have to month the actuator to move the throttle lever on the IP and I';m guessing the speed sensor wants to see a gear or a notch in a pulley or maybe a magnet going past. Is there anything else and ate all the actuators and sensors compatible with all the controllers out there ( Chinese being most economical).

Seems an electronic controller may be a bit more accurate than some of the engine mechanical Governors like the ones on my china Diesels.

oldgoat

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Re: Electronic Govenors
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2017, 04:51:38 AM »
$80 bux  on ebay +the actuator + the pickup. 

EdDee

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Re: Electronic Govenors
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2017, 05:55:56 AM »
Piece of Ali plate, hooked to the throttle linkage, in the fan draft from the radiator.... Has been working on your favorite brand Briggs motors for years..... Total cost USD 0.01.... The look on your face as you read this - Priceless!
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

glort

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Re: Electronic Govenors
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2017, 02:46:49 PM »
$80 bux  on ebay +the actuator + the pickup.

Do you have any links for a matching set?
Controller I can find, actuator and sensor...... not so easy for me.

ED, Great to hear from you mate! How are things going? Well I hope!

Sorry to dissapoint but there wasn't any look. I have thought about this but my impression was it would be very difficult if not impossible to get the right balance and I could not envisage the control accurate enough to keep the Hz on a generator within acceptable limits. I have seen the setup on the briggs ( and I loathe those those cheap arse engines) and a local mower manufacturer also used it on a carby which was fitted to 2 Stroke 125Cc mower engines. ..... and in about a dozen different carb designs they produced over 50+ years these were considered to be by far the worst.  :0)

The fact YOU mention this idea makes me curious and think that perhaps you may have some experience with such a setup and perhaps have found it to be accurate enough for a genny?

I was wondering if there would be a Smart way to set this up to be accurate?  Would one have say a relatively large vane to catch the air and create a lot of torque then " gear" it with a crank or bell horn so the movement of the throttle lever was small  thus increasing sensitivity? Would one do it the other way and make a little movement of the vane a lot of movement of the throttle?  Would air density have any effect?  Hot air coming through the rad is going to be less dense than cold air when the engine starts up. Is there is enough difference to matter? 
Why is the sky Blue and the earth roun..... Sorry, carried away there..... :0)

Anyway, keen to hear of any experience of knowledge you have of these, thoughts or suggestions.

Samo

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Re: Electronic Govenors
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2017, 08:19:41 PM »
The governor control I use on the Arduino's for my Roid is based on PID principles - Proportional-Integral-Derivative controller or more simply a number of feedback mechanisms. There's stacks of information out there on this but it gets heavy pretty quickly.

Plus... In theory the practical application should be the same as the theory, but in practice it's not.  ???

If you can't find / buy one my approach would be build it on an Arduino and drive an actuator. The arduino and code I'm using on my Roid is governing speed based on flywheel rotation detection (IR or hall effect sensor + magnet). Same sort of thing you're after so it would be a good start.

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7925.msg90260#msg90260
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starfire

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Re: Electronic Govenors
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2017, 10:32:06 PM »
By simply monitoring the alternator  mains frequency, that saves adding extra speed sensing  to the engine and accounts for belt slippage. A compression release solenoid can be held off by the mains voltage, logical ORed with the arduino watchdog...when either  dissapears, , belt breakage or the electronic governor fails (watchdog out)  the engine will fail safe and stop..
With modern electronics and appliances, mains frequency/engine speed is very non critical, but voltage overshoot is a problem in small systems when heavy loads switch off.
In reality, the existing governor is fine, I wouldnt  complicate it.... improve the AVR system, thats far more important..

glort

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Re: Electronic Govenors
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2017, 11:17:59 PM »

Looks great and Doable Samo.

Couple of things.....

Do you have a Schematic with parts and wiring Diagram?

I have a display for an arduino, came in the kit I bought. Does that wire up the same ( without the resistors)?

I tried copying the software from the one note page but can't seem to do it and load it into the arduino programmer. Will it work from there or is it just my computer being difficult again?.  I tried copying text from here and it went into the program just fine.

This is something I'd like to have a go at. Looks simple enough if I can get the component and wiring pinout.

If the alt Frequency can be used, how is that done? Monitor the output wire with one of those voltage/ amp sensors or is there a frequency sensor?

Samo

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Re: Electronic Govenors
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2017, 01:51:08 AM »
Sure Glort,
I have code that will work with a number of displays (led dot matrix etc), but obviously the display resolution dictates what can be displayed. If you provide me with the display details I'll give you the right or close to right code.  Then I can package up the files and schematic in a format you can use.

Samo
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starfire

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Re: Electronic Govenors
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2017, 02:03:43 AM »
Sampling he mains frequency is easy, almost every bedside digital clock does this to keep time. Just use the AC component of the  low voltage output of  the same transformer that is powering the speed controller. Even the speed controller can be designed  with a few cheap Cmos chips, using a Pic or Arduino is overkill unless you just want to play and learn. The mechanical governor is really all that is needed on a CS, the heavy flywheels make short term catchups very slow, even with  fast acting electronics, and the long term average is what the original governor does very well. And remember too,  theres only  5/6 power strokes a second to play with, further slowing response.
Most of what you need to build an electronic governor can be found in a Cmos 4046 chip. ... these cost around 75 cents each. A Cmos 4060 will give you a crystal locked  mains frequency, and a few Mosfets will give the power control for activating whatever linear actuator or even a window winder motor to move the rack.

Samo

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Re: Electronic Govenors
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2017, 04:45:43 AM »
Hi Starfire,

I agree! Actually I also have an arduino governor project based on sampling V/I & HZ, and that works very well too, but there's a lot more to this approach given the various sensors, current transformers and opto isolators between the genset mains output and governor. If you're not keen on mains interfaces, and some more complex software, then a hall effect sensor and a magnet on the crank is a simpler alternative IMHO.

The beauty of the power sampling is it also provides the generator output which is a nice bonus!

More on that post...
http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7696.30

cheers,
Samo
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 04:47:30 AM by Samo »
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glort

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Re: Electronic Govenors
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2017, 07:16:16 AM »
Thanks Mate, Very much appreciated.

The display is 1602a

https://www.openhacks.com/uploadsproductos/eone-1602a1.pdf

If there is a better one for more info or whatever, let me know and I'll spend the 5 bux and get one. I keep Aus and China post in business with all the things I order off fleabay, alibaba and the like!  :0)

Is the sensor a pre made board as well? Any info on that would be appreciated too.

Oh, and the actuator for the throttle.  I'm very green at all this but I can wire things up as long as I have the schematic and the parts list.

Before you know it, I'll be doing fuel injection for the lawn mower!
I have been thinking about PWM'ing a fuel injector for my oil burners.  That would give some nice control!
If it didn't work with oil, I might be able to run some petrol through it and make a pulse jet or at least something bloody noisy and dangerous!
WINNER!  :laugh:

Samo

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Re: Electronic Govenors
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2017, 08:49:03 PM »
No problem with the 1602 display I've already got code to drive it.

Bit of a story here, but it's related...

I happened to be helping a mate restore his '64 F100 yesterday. He's using an EF Fairlane as the donor vehicle, mainly for it's V8 and suspension. The track dimensions are exactly the same.... and front/rear suspension are spot on. Anyway we stripped all the bits out of the EF and while doing that I came across the cruse control module.

It's a geared stepper motor driven unit with a solenoid driven clutch to drive a cable that attaches to the EFI throttle. I found an installation/fault finding article on Ford Mods that you could use to reverse engineer the control, but my gut feeling is it would be easier to drive using a stepper motor controller and arduino. Thing is this motor cable setup is the perfect form and quality of engineering for a governor control unit.
 
You could pick this sort of thing up from a wrecker or online pretty cheap. Thing is there's probably a bunch of this class of device out there from other manufactures, and they may even be more suitable....

There's a pic of the unit in the link, scroll down a bit...

http://www.fordmods.com/ford-technical-document-cruise-control-d11

Samo
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glort

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Re: Electronic Govenors
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2017, 02:14:23 AM »

I have seen cruise Control actuators before and wondered about them. They look so ready made with a cable and all built in. A lot of what I have seen appear to be Vac activated but I always wondered how to drive them. They are the sort of thing that should be readily available and cheap because they rarely stuff up so therefore the wreckers probably wouldn't bother taking them off most of the time.

I'd be interested in learning how to drive one. Would you use a H bridge controller on an arduino or is that for something else?

Samo

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Re: Electronic Govenors
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2017, 10:52:32 AM »
I'd be using an HBridge to drive it. Most of the larger ones are around 3A and that will be close. There may be versions that can sink more current but I've not looked.
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Samo

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Re: Electronic Govenors
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2017, 09:20:27 AM »
Hey Glort,

This attached .txt file has some arduino software that is a bit rudimentary, but it shows how I drove a 1602 display.

Not sure what your time frame is but once I get to Tassy and get set up (January) I'm going to develop a governor using my cruise control unit.  But I'm guessing the move to Tassy will be a bit disruptive, you've experienced that lately right? That might mean my estimates will slide right a bit....

Samo

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