Author Topic: Identify this?  (Read 7433 times)

starfire

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Re: Identify this?
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2017, 09:22:34 AM »
Firstly, its either a DC motor, or  a DC generator, or both.

The armature windings are very thin, indicating low current.  equals low power...
Theres not a lot of winds either indicating low voltage.
What possible use for this to warrant hooking it up to an engine?
I cant think of one.
Even if its an old 32 volt lighting plant, its still has no present day use...
Unless you just paint it to look at...... but it has no real historic value.
That I can see.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 09:29:51 AM by starfire »

AdeV

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Re: Identify this?
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2017, 09:54:30 AM »
It might be worth trying http://www.stationary-engine.net/forum/, there's quite a few guys there familiar with olde worlde electrical equipment. Unfortunately, the site appears to be down at the moment, which is most unusual.

I googled Busch, as I'm sure you did, and got nothing, zip, zilch, nada. I wonder if it's an early foreign clone of a Bosch unit. Construction appears simple enough, and the method of operation of the generator is probably simple. If the brushes are OK, you could probably get some output.

That switchboard, on the other hand... looks lethal. If you plan to show this engine, then it's worth keeping (as it's original, presumably), but I'd not bother wiring it up. Or possibly re-wire the innards so the gauges work, but any adjuster should be replaced with something new and insulated... If you plan to make it work for a living, I'd probably ditch the alternator as well as the switchboard & replace with modern components.
Cheers!
Ade.
--------------
1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

broncodriver99

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Re: Identify this?
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2017, 06:28:12 PM »
Being as it came with a 3.5/1 it is likely a 1.5kw unit or less. It appears from the switchboard to be capable of being used as a starter motor which is a plus in my book. Since it appears to be a DC unit, I would think if the voltage is in an acceptable range that it could be used to run a small inverter.

What are you looking to do with it? I would replicate the switch board with modern components, the adjustment and start/run sections at least to make it usable.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 06:29:58 PM by broncodriver99 »

mike90045

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Re: Identify this?
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2017, 11:32:24 PM »
I love the steampunk idea, get cash for it, and hook up some good modern gear

basewindow

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Re: Identify this?
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2017, 09:11:05 PM »
Thanks all for your help and suggestions.

I have an small 'Off Grid' place and although I have Solar and Batteries and even a modern (if not problematic) backup  generator, what I'd really have liked (Apart from the simple pleasure of restoring the Lister etc) to do, is to have this as the backup generator.

The Lister is 95% finished, but as I said I have no idea as to this unit or how I'll intergrate it or repair or make it work or what it will produce if it does.

The switchboard looks cool, but I wouldnt intrgrate it into the system, I just hoped it would provide me with some idea as to how the generator/motor functioned. I may clean it up a bit and if I can find similar guages etc, keep it just for effect, if not maybe the fleabay suggestion could help fund another project.

I did apply a 12v battery to the various terminals with no apparent effect.  Could it be 24, 32 or even 48v?

Can anyone give me an idea how these 'Startomatic' units worked together with the engine? For example was the generator/motor hooked permanantly to a battery to auto start (crank) the engine to start, then switched over to generator mode to charge the battery and provide power by the generator?

Cheers,

Cam
1953 CS Lister 3.5hp, 1938? Bamford SD1 3.5hp, 1962 Fordson Super Dexta, 1969 International 434.

AdeV

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Re: Identify this?
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2017, 08:18:54 AM »
There were a couple of types of Start-o-matic, I think the main difference was DC or AC supply. The typical AC "lighting plant" (the most commonly seen Start-o-Matic for the 5/1 or 6/1 engine) was a 2.5kw alternator attached to the engine (which had "heavy" style flywheels, rather than the more common spoked design). A solenoid attached to the back of the engine operated the decompression lifter and the rack stop, and was normally held (by springs) in the "off" position. Via a control board, 24v batteries were connected to the lighting ring and the engine. When a load was detected (i.e. a light switch turned on), the control board switched 24v onto the starter circuit, which turned the alternator into a starter motor. Simultaneously, the decompression solenoid operated which allowed the fuel rack to open & the exhaust valve to operate as normal. Assuming all was well, the engine would then fire up, and start to "overspin" the alternator, which then switched to generating mode. This generated both 110v or 240v AC single phase, and sufficient DC voltage to recharge the batteries.

The system remained running until the last load on the circuit went off (i.e. the last light turned out), at which point the solenoid was released, shutting off the fuel and operating the decompression lifter, shutting the engine down. It then went back to waiting for a load to appear on the circuit.

Once the start cycle was started by a load, it would continue until the engine started to generate (even if the load was immediately removed); it would also only motor for a certain period of time, e.g. if the engine had no fuel, so it didn't flatten the batteries or burn out the starter circuit. This was all achieved using bi-metallic strips and other black magic... no computers back then!

The DC SOMs are slightly different in that the motor/dynamo are directly coupled to the engine, the engine itself is normally a CD or possibly a 9/1 (JP1) model rather than the CS we know & love, and they often had an additional "solenoid" (more of a motor really) attached to the compression changeover valve, so once started they could automatically switch over to low compression.
Cheers!
Ade.
--------------
1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

BruceM

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Re: Identify this?
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2017, 05:13:32 PM »
Enjoyed your very well written description of the SOM actions and mechanisms very much, AdeV.  Thanks! 
Amazing how Lister achieved a full automatic start and stop genset with the technology of the day. I really admire how they distilled the functions and actuators to the minimum.

I've read that Lister also had a 110VDC lighting set via large series string of wet lead batteries, charged via engine/generator.  I'd love to learn more about that.  It was apparently only sold for a few years.

basewindow

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Re: Identify this?
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2017, 08:33:30 PM »
Thanks for the explanation of the SOM. Was wondering how the decompression and rack issue was overcome with engine start. So it was a truly automatic system and would even detect a load such as a light being turned on etc to start. I just assumed you'd have to flick a start switch on a board to start the unit first. Very impressive.

So the DC head units were in general 24v?
1953 CS Lister 3.5hp, 1938? Bamford SD1 3.5hp, 1962 Fordson Super Dexta, 1969 International 434.

AdeV

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Re: Identify this?
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2017, 02:44:08 PM »
Thanks for the explanation of the SOM. Was wondering how the decompression and rack issue was overcome with engine start. So it was a truly automatic system and would even detect a load such as a light being turned on etc to start. I just assumed you'd have to flick a start switch on a board to start the unit first. Very impressive.

So the DC head units were in general 24v?

Hence the name Start-o-Matic :D There were manually operated versions as well, although I don't know if they were ever fitted with the CS engines (I've seen them with CDs, CEs and various petrol/paraffin/TVO engines).

I'm guessing a bit here - I think the alternator has 2 completely separate windings: A 240V (or 120V possibly), and a 24V. I'm also assuming the 24V side could be "driven", so basically it swapped from being a motor to a generator when up to speed. How any of that side of it worked, I have no idea...

Inside the house powered by a Lister SOM lighting plant; when you switched on a light, it came on dimly (50VDC), then brightened when the alternator took over. So you could tell if the engine hadn't started (the light stayed dim) or the batteries were flat (no light at all), at which point I assume you grumbled, put on 15 layers of clothing, clumped out to the shed & cranked the thing by hand, having diagnosed what the issue was by candle light...
Cheers!
Ade.
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1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

BruceM

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Re: Identify this?
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2017, 02:54:44 PM »
Adev- are you sure about 50V?  They'd have to have a notoriously unreliable mechanicial vibrator circuit to make 50V from 24V so that's why that seems less likely to me. 24V would make the 110V element glow...

dieselgman

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Re: Identify this?
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2017, 04:06:55 PM »
We have all the schematics and manuals for a wide range of the SOM sets... they do vary quite a bit in designs for different engines and time-periods. The "black-magic" description made me laugh Ade! I do understand where you are coming from... to look at the components and wiring, it usually looks a mess!

dieselgman
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AdeV

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Re: Identify this?
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2017, 02:20:46 PM »
Adev- are you sure about 50V?  They'd have to have a notoriously unreliable mechanicial vibrator circuit to make 50V from 24V so that's why that seems less likely to me. 24V would make the 110V element glow...

Whoops, brain fart, I meant 24v of course!
Cheers!
Ade.
--------------
1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

AdeV

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Re: Identify this?
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2017, 02:21:55 PM »
We have all the schematics and manuals for a wide range of the SOM sets... they do vary quite a bit in designs for different engines and time-periods. The "black-magic" description made me laugh Ade! I do understand where you are coming from... to look at the components and wiring, it usually looks a mess!

I've got an original S-o-M unit, with both the alternator top box & the control unit. As far as I can determine, it's either witchcraft, or operated by spiders...
Cheers!
Ade.
--------------
1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

basewindow

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Re: Identify this?
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2017, 10:01:09 PM »
Now the spider part might just have some merit to it. The first thing to greet me when I took the rocker cover off the Lister was one of the largest huntsman spiders i have ever seen. It was stuck (thankfully dead) in a pool off grease and oil. Think a large number of things in my shed are operated by spiders.....
1953 CS Lister 3.5hp, 1938? Bamford SD1 3.5hp, 1962 Fordson Super Dexta, 1969 International 434.