Metro 6/1 no oil pump, but cooling pump?

[runner]

Well it has been a while, and I am getting to a Metro 6/1 with zero hours set up with a generator. It has no oil pump and a cooling water pump on it. Can or should you run these with a thermostat? If you do, doesn't the pump run dry/dead head and over heat until the t-stat opens? Should you run detergent or non-detergent oil in the pump-less models? I am going to put a few magnets in the sump. Should I check the cylinder for shimming (if it is not plumb with the piston) with the lead shot on the piston trick?

Any other things to check before running?


thanks in advance,,,

[Samo]

Hi Runner,

Welcome! I'd run a 30 wt oil without detergent, because you want impurities to sink to the bottom of the sump, and detergent will keep them in suspension- which is fine if you have an oil filter. You obviously don't so the magnets are also a good idea.

I run a 12v water pump and a thermostat, I drilled a small hole in the edge of the thermostat valve, so there is always some flow going through it. That seems to work pretty well for me.

As for checking things before running, If it hasn't been done, you'll need to check for left over casting sand. There are plenty of posts on this but basically the listeroid will need to be stripped cleaned and reassembled. I know it sounds like a lot of work, but it's how you get to know your engine!

Samo

[Samo]

check out http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7359.0 for 38AC's brilliant post, a few posts in he goes into casting sand....

[ronmar]

Thermostat = yes.  Cooling pumps are not positive displacement so it does not "run dry" nor does it have a problem with a closed thermostat. like about every auto out there have no issue with a closed thermostat.  The thermostat should have a small bypass hole added to it to allow a little coolant to leak past so the hot coolant can reach the thermostat bulb that opens the thermostat gate/valve plate.  This helps the thermostat to regulate better As long as it is not too large a hole(1/8" or so should be fine).  I probably wouldn't put much faith in a rakjot coolant pump to last, probably better to not use it and configure for thermosiphon...

No oil pump huh?  Does it have the true single main high volume oil sump?  The pump version has a stepped sump.  The upper sump has perhaps 3/4" of oil in it that the dipper swings thru.  The pumped oil squirted on bearings and crank runs down into and keeps the upper sump full for the dipper to swing thru a consistent oil level.  The excess runs over the lip to the lower sump which contains several quarts of oil and from which the pump draws.    If the block casting is a stepped sump you are going to have to figure a way to keep the upper sump full as the dipper slings most all the oil toward the cam, but some does get splashed back and will find it's way to the lower sump untill there is not enough upper sump oil to maintain good dipper splash.  Easiest way to do this is to keep the lower sump full to the point that it just barely flows over into the upper sump.  But if that oil level decreases(and it will) then there is nothing to keep the upper sump full...  In the case of an original pattern casting, it may not even be possible to keep the lower sump that full as the fill point was lower than the upper sump and was a sliding metal plate(not oil tight).  My casting was sealed where the original fill point would have been located on a true lister so on some it is possible...

Oil = non detergent. 

Not a bad idea to check differential squish(place lead over each end of the wrist pin).  Squish in general is good info and diferential squish will give you an idea if the cylinder bore is in the same plane as the piston/rod travel(machining errors not withstanding of course)...

Has it set for a while?  Original design rope fuel filter?  Way better basic fuel filters out there that won't cause you as many problems as the original either clogging or leaking/admitting air...  if the system has been dry, once filled with fuel tap all the hose with a screwdriver to help dislodge air bubbles otherwise these will cause you issues for a little while as they work loose and find their way to the IP.

Goosd luck!
   

[Hugh Conway]

@Runner

Probably yes, as Samo says straight 30wt without a filter. I am using straight 30 in my filterless Dursley and a detergent multi-grade in my filtered Listeroid. Really though, I would bet it makes little difference given that modern oils are so much better than the original oils available when these things were designed. Frequent oil changes are the important part.
Thermostat....we used to have one in the listeroid (with a small hole to allow for air to purge itself out. Since switching over from a large capacity cooling tank to a cast iron radiator, I found that the 'stat is not necessary in my case.. It all heats up quite quickly and maintains a good hot temperature without overheating on an average 2 hour run.
As for a water pump, also not necessary.....if you can arrange it, a thermosiphon works just great with no moving parts to fail. 
And of course, before you run it, do take it completely down and clean it internally. Set it up properly.....bump clearance and timing will make a big difference in ease of starting. You will know your engine and be confident to make any repairs and adjustments. There is lots of good information on setting up on the forum; poke around through past posts and you will learn a lot. 
I am an off-gridder and use my engines to provide power when the sun does not and also to power up my shop.
We are off the beaten path, my "machine  shop" is little more than a collection of hammers and files.......goes along with my skill level.........That said, I have gotten good reliable service from my Listeroid over the last 5 years and refurbished a non-running Startomatic 6/1 that is now in my wood shop.......thanks to all the help and advice I have gleaned from others on this forum. Thank you all!
And Runner.....most importantly, have fun with it!

Cheers,
Hugh

[SHIPCHIEF]

Back in the active days of Listeroids (2007-ish) there was a guy called Hotater who invented an oil filter for no-oil pump engines. It is a wire screen pocket mounted to the crankcase door. In the pocket he put some terry-cloth.
The con-rod dipper throws oil into the pocket, which is filtered as it drains thru the terry-cloth.
I made a Plexiglas door for my 25/2 because I wanted to see how much oil the dippers did move. It's a-lot of oil! The whole crankcase is filled with a rain of oil, but the main strip of oil is right against the door, and so I dutifully made the screen pocket and put some Terry-cloth in it and some magnets to hold the cloth down, even tho- I have a pump.
Rocketboy had a pump failure while powering his home during a Hurricane. The plunger return spring shattered, yet the splash lube kept the whole (twin, 12/2??) lubed without a problem.
I have a 25/2, but I also crave one of those monster singles with the 2 level sump, vertical oil pump plunger and direct injection head. 

[mike90045]

I have a metro 6/1, no oil pump, just splash lube.
 It was set up pretty well, I'd ordered one with a factory starter, took me 3 years to get the battery wired up, it was that critical (not)
I've got a little over 450 hours (if I just now read my spreadsheet correctly) on it, and aside from a  lousy factory head gasket, it's been great.  When I changed the head gasket, I had valve seats cut in,  Detroit Diesel series 92 valve seats are a very close fit.
Because of low-sulfur diesel, I mix 2-Stroke oil @ 200:1 in the fuel.  I use a spray bottle of water/alcohol down the intake when hot, to break carbon up out of the cylinder.
I installed a thermostat, 195F add-on thermostat NAPA 253 & grind out the housing to accept it. (also Gates 33269)
Gasket for stacking on the thermostat water fitting   NAPA 1038-ST



This thread may interest you :
http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7407.15

[runner]

Thanks to all for the info,,, it is a true single pump casing. I will have to find that door filter thread, sounds like it cannot hurt and should remove some particulate.   And I guess pull it down to check for sand from casting.

Thanks !!

[BruceM]

From a 2014 post of mine, some info on my "sock in a box" gravity fed filter below the big door, inspired by Hotater's (Jack Beck) towel on screen design.  And a cautionary tale about assuming your engine won't have hidden sand issues:


"Here's an interesting old thread about my initial experience with my filter:

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=1000.0

Eventually I found the source of my grit- it was a gob of black grease mixed with casting sand under the piston crown, hidden by the wrist pin and rod.  Seems likely it was intentional sabotage by an angry worker.  I sure went through a lot of main bearing shells before finding it!  Switching to solid, un-grooved upper bearing shells helped quite a bit- no more grit raining down and into the upper bearing shell.

There's some photos of my gravity oil filter box from the Microcogen forum:
http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=132.0"

[38ac]

Oil pump or not has nothing to do with the proper oil to use in the engine. There is absolutely NO reason to make rocket science out the oil requirements for a CS engine. Experience of engines through the shop is that fully 95% of Indian engine failures are due to sand and slag contamination. If you have sand and slag it is going to circulate no matter what oil you put in the sump and a filter is NOT the fix,disassembly and removal is.   In my (slightly ) opinionated opinion non-detergent oil is never a good choice IN A NEW OR CLEAN engine. But it is the only choice for an old dirty engine that has had non-detergent oil run in it previously. Straight grade oil isnt the best choice either. Bottom line is these engines are an easy oil application and if your engine is new AND clean you run about any currently available 15-40 or 30 in in it and your running far better oil than was available when the CS was designed. If you choose an oil with out zinc then you are loosing an important friction additive. Will it kill the engine? NO. Will it cause l-o-n-g  term wear issues? Probably. Evey engine that leaves my shop has a sump full of Rotella 15-40 and a zinc additive.

Thermostat- Again in my (only slightly ) opinionated opinion the only time you need a thermostat in a CS type engine is when you are running a circulating pump or if the engine is pumping water and using a "run through" set up to cool the engine.  In these cases the engine will run far too cold without it.  A properly set up thermosyphon  with tank or radiator will regulate the temp plenty well enough without one in my experience. 

[mike90045]

Any suggestions for a zinc additive for the engine oil ?

[mikenash]

Oil pump or not has nothing to do with the proper oil to use in the engine. There is absolutely NO reason to make rocket science out the oil requirements for a CS engine. Experience of engines through the shop is that fully 95% of Indian engine failures are due to sand and slag contamination. If you have sand and slag it is going to circulate no matter what oil you put in the sump and a filter is NOT the fix,disassembly and removal is.   In my (slightly ) opinionated opinion non-detergent oil is never a good choice IN A NEW OR CLEAN engine. But it is the only choice for an old dirty engine that has had non-detergent oil run in it previously. Straight grade oil isnt the best choice either. Bottom line is these engines are an easy oil application and if your engine is new AND clean you run about any currently available 15-40 or 30 in in it and your running far better oil than was available when the CS was designed. If you choose an oil with out zinc then you are loosing an important friction additive. Will it kill the engine? NO. Will it cause l-o-n-g  term wear issues? Probably. Evey engine that leaves my shop has a sump full of Rotella 15-40 and a zinc additive.

Thermostat- Again in my (only slightly ) opinionated opinion the only time you need a thermostat in a CS type engine is when you are running a circulating pump or if the engine is pumping water and using a "run through" set up to cool the engine.  In these cases the engine will run far too cold without it.  A properly set up thermosyphon  with tank or radiator will regulate the temp plenty well enough without one in my experience.

Good common-sense, low-tech approach to low-tech engines.  Well said

[starfire]

I have to agree. ALL the engines I have gotten over my long life have been full of TAR. Black thick sticky shit that you scoop out with your hands, Black  sticky shit that gets everywhere, and takes weeks to remove from any surface   it comes in contact with, defying even the best industrial strength cleaners man has devised, and even resisting the ravages of nature. It would make good house and car paint.
Few of these neglected engines showed any  signs of lubrication failure despite the chances that the oil pump cant even pump this stuff around properly.
. IF these engines can successfully lubricate with this stuff then anything slightly better than a thin film of margarine would likely be good enough. In fact, I have a theory that Listers actually prefer black sticky shit,  as they begin from day one processing even the cleanest and most expensive oils into black sticky shit, carbon impregnating it  in very short order.
It was common knowledge that the old ford vee 8 flatheads ran much better when the valve chest under the inlet manifold was also full of black sticky shit.... if cleaned, the engine would die shortly after. This could be just coincidence, although I believe R A Lister did have American connections.

[38ac]

Any suggestions for a zinc additive for the engine oil ?

Lucas oil #10063 is what I use, there are others, search "zinc oil additive"

[BruceM]

I think 38AC's point on thermostats is interesting and a good one.  Thermosiphon is a temperature driven flow, and the heat given off by a well sized radiator or tank is also directly proportional to temperature differential.  So temperature regulation is achieved by design- thermosiphon flow and tank/radiator heat radiation. 

Large tanks will obviously take a while to get up to temperature. So perhaps a penalty for an engine that does fairly short service periods?  Mine often runs for 40 minutes to an hr; a load of laundry while running the 1150 watt submersible pump.  It does longer runs for air compressor duty on wood working projects but often runs only 30 minutes filling the 500 gallon air tank.

I must admit that my thermosiphon- induced draft radiator cooling system has had multiple thermostat failures over the last 12 years or so.  I think that was partly due to some binding in my improvised thermostat housing.

I run whatever diesel or all fleet multi viscosity oil is on sale and change at 200 hrs.

I think a total tear down with crankcase needle scale and die grinder job followed by generic Glyptol (red electrical vanish)  is very well advised for all Rajkot products. You will find a lot of flaws and pockets that seemed solid but on grinding find they were only covered over by their dubious quality paint job. An accident waiting to happen.  My friend Mark did the die grinder work on my neighbors crankcase and said there was 3 TBSP of sand just sealed and smoothed over with paint.  He spend about 4 hours of grinder time.