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Author Topic: How Slow can a CS go?  (Read 4455 times)

MachineNLectricMan

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How Slow can a CS go?
« on: September 18, 2017, 06:41:40 AM »
Whether it be a CS Lister, or a Listeroid, I was wondering how slow anyone has been able to run one of these at no load, I.E. a "standby" idle? Given potential balance and cylinder head sooting issues, there is likely a bottom limit. Now I would be referring to a well mounted 6/1 or even a 12/2 engine running on No. 1 or No. 2 pump diesel, not WMO, WVO or biodiesel. Is it possible to tweak the governor to take one down as low as 200 rpm?

dieselgman

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Re: How Slow can a CS go?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2017, 07:00:25 AM »
Take a look on YouTube and I think you will find some slow-speed demos and competitions of sorts.
In my opinion 200rpm is doable for a well-balanced specimen, but not recommended.

Why would you want to operate one no-load anyway? These are easy to start up once properly tuned and set up.
I would think you would have no ill effects from idling brief periods, but you mainly want one of these machines to be working hard if it is spinning.

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AdeV

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Re: How Slow can a CS go?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2017, 10:02:32 PM »
Whether it be a CS Lister, or a Listeroid, I was wondering how slow anyone has been able to run one of these at no load, I.E. a "standby" idle? Given potential balance and cylinder head sooting issues, there is likely a bottom limit. Now I would be referring to a well mounted 6/1 or even a 12/2 engine running on No. 1 or No. 2 pump diesel, not WMO, WVO or biodiesel. Is it possible to tweak the governor to take one down as low as 200 rpm?

The slowest I've ever had mine running is about 60rpm... but I wouldn't recommend it, being a splash lube engine, at low RPMs there's no oil being flung around... extended running would surely lead to bearing failure.
Cheers!
Ade.
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1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

ronmar

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Re: How Slow can a CS go?
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2017, 04:24:10 AM »
What Ade said!  Need that dipper to displace sump oil with enough velocity to reach high enough into the piston to be able to drip into that little end bearing lube hole on the top of the conrod...  Same compression load regardless of RPM and if you don't provide more oil to those lube holes than is being shed out the edge of the bearing, they are going to be wiped out in short order...  Same for the mains on a pump engine, lower RPM, fewer oil pump strokes, less oil to the mains...
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

jetmax

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Re: How Slow can a CS go?
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2017, 06:11:14 AM »
I am appreciate to all masters , I learn much things , all of you are great persons .
Mesut

MachineNLectricMan

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Re: How Slow can a CS go?
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2017, 08:28:15 AM »
Well, these engines might be easy enough for one of us to start, but maybe not if the spouse needs to start it while your away for periods of time in the winter, and the engine has no electric starter yet. In addition to that, the engine would stay warmed up if it was simply "idled".

I disagree on the fuel consumption. In spite of a little more blow by, I think the difference would be dramatic. You would definitely want to use an engine with an oil pump though. At slower speeds, combustion would have much longer to complete. So even if compression was slower and ignition was a little lazy, these effects would be canceled out by the longer stroke time giving combustion extra time to do the same job. I doubt there would be any injector dribble with the type used on these engines, even at ultra slow RPM. I think we are largely in the territory of empirical knowledge here, where the only way to know for sure is to test things out in a well designed experiment. Using full synthetic non-detergent diesel crankcase oil would help a lot at slow speeds as well. Does anyone make such an oil! Probably not.

I specified pump diesel as a baseline comparison fuel. It is true that biodiesel, being an ester with methanol, would have a higher cetane and burn better, but with lower BTU's per gallon. WMO and WVO would not be the same unless mixed with generous amounts of pump diesel or Bio.  I always thought it was funny how people would get into making biodiesel to get away from using petroleum oil based products. They didn't realize that all of that methanol they were using in the biodiesel manufacturing process was............ a by-product of oil refining! Sometimes it's made from natural gas reforming. I think the oil Barron's were getting excellent laughs out of that, and were probably actually promoting the use of biodiesel! My late father was a chemical engineer who designed refineries nearly all of his life.

You would be surprised at what you can make diesel and/or gasoline from. The Germans had very little oil reserves during WWII, (except maybe from some nations they conquered) they made most of their liquid fuels from reforming coal. Their processes made far better diesel than gasoline. That might explain why most of their tanks ran on diesel, while most of our's ran on gasoline. Now days, it is theoretically possible to make gasoline, or diesel from almost every drop of a barrel of crude, although no refiner would ever do that due to the extreme costs. There are many installations currently making gasoline and/or diesel from natural gas. Very little fuel is "straight run" anymore.

This is a good time to work out these details. Next time the price of oil goes up, maybe 5 years or so from now, we'll all wish we had alternatives. I am suspicious that the next time the pricing of a barrel of crude goes viral, it will take on biblical pricing proportions. By then, I hope to be mostly solar. Of course, by then, the fed's will probably have figured out how to tax for the use of the sun as well.

starfire

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Re: How Slow can a CS go?
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2017, 10:15:49 AM »
Germany had more time to develop diesel engines leading into WW2, the Brits and Yanks tended to use available engine designs and tooling due to a hasty entry into the war, caught on the back foot so to speak.. There was even a radial engine using multiple Packard sidevalve six car engines as a tank engine at one time, they even used radial aircraft engines, thats how pressed for time they were.
. Germany was the leader in diesel technology even having diesel aircraft engines.
Unlike petrol, diesels have a long burn time no matter what the revs, and increases with loading. To idle a diesel, the burn time is very short, pressures low,so blowby would be minimal. A diesel always has a cylinder full of air, unlike a throttled petrol version that works with a partial vacuum. Diesel burn time is dictated by injector squirt duration and not RPMs.
I think there are some who would benefit from actually buying their own engine, rather than reading about them.....

mikenash

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Re: How Slow can a CS go?
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2017, 06:57:30 PM »
Germany had more time to develop diesel engines leading into WW2, the Brits and Yanks tended to use available engine designs and tooling due to a hasty entry into the war, caught on the back foot so to speak.. There was even a radial engine using multiple Packard sidevalve six car engines as a tank engine at one time, they even used radial aircraft engines, thats how pressed for time they were.
. Germany was the leader in diesel technology even having diesel aircraft engines.
Unlike petrol, diesels have a long burn time no matter what the revs, and increases with loading. To idle a diesel, the burn time is very short, pressures low,so blowby would be minimal. A diesel always has a cylinder full of air, unlike a throttled petrol version that works with a partial vacuum. Diesel burn time is dictated by injector squirt duration and not RPMs.
I think there are some who would benefit from actually buying their own engine, rather than reading about them.....

Over here, Starfire, I think the kindest term we would use is "plonker"  But arguing with him is as pointless as trying to have a sensible discussion at the front door with a Jehova's Witness IMHO

dieselspanner

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Re: How Slow can a CS go?
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2017, 10:07:57 PM »
What about Akroyd Stuart, nice bloke, engineer, lived in Oz for a bit and had a bit of a ruck with some German bloke over compression ignition engines, it was the German who won the day.

Just as well really, otherwise we'd all be ploughing up the road in 3 litre turbo Herberts..........

Stef
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cujet

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Re: How Slow can a CS go?
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2017, 02:55:31 AM »
For what ever reason, my 20/2 will easily idle at 100 RPM. It has an oil pump, and will oil the tapered roller bearings and center bearing. But the cylinders probably do not get any splash lube. Not sure how long it would last at that speed.

I run mine at 600 or 800 RPM.
People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence

dieselgman

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Re: How Slow can a CS go?
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2017, 10:27:22 AM »
Now 100rpm! That is indeed a crawl even for a twin!

A twin will have less trouble slowing way down like that, if it is well balanced. This is really the first post I have seen regarding experiments with very slow operation of a twin. The one reported has TRB mains, surely they would never become an issue... but camshaft as well as upper engine lubrication could become an issue for any kind of sustained operation ... not in the design specs and not recommended.

Thanks for the posts!

dieselgman
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