Author Topic: Is a Petter AA1 smaller in size than the AC1?  (Read 378 times)

artfull dodger

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Is a Petter AA1 smaller in size than the AC1?
« on: June 07, 2017, 12:29:20 AM »
I have been unable to find dimensions online as of yet.   Wanting to know if the Petter AA1 is smaller in size than the AC1.   I used to have the AC1 and am familiar with its size and I have the  spec sheet for that model.   Thanks  Mike
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dieselgman

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Re: Is a Petter AA1 smaller in size than the AC1?
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2017, 02:30:55 AM »
AA1 is quite a bit smaller than the AC1...

AA1 specs:  2.75" bore 2.25" stroke, 13.4 cu.in., 1.5 bhp at 1500rpm

dieselgman
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artfull dodger

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Re: Is a Petter AA1 smaller in size than the AC1?
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2017, 02:49:45 AM »
I am interested in the overall height of the engine.  I have a height restriction to keep it under the hood.  I cannot find those specs.   Mike
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listard-jp2

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Re: Is a Petter AA1 smaller in size than the AC1?
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2017, 10:27:03 AM »
The answer to your question is 17" and this is measured from the base of the sump to the highest point on the engine (which is the cylinder head stud to which the upper fuel tank mounting bracket bolts to).
With minor modification you could reduce the overall height to 16.3/4", which then would make the top of the air filter housing the next highest item, if you then had a remote fuel tank and a remote air filter assembly this could further reduce the overall height to 16.1/2" and that would be the absolute limit of what you could expect to get away with.

Here is a link to an 'A range' workshop manual, which contains a lot of useful information:

http://winget.co.uk/document/PETTER%20A%20RANGE%20WORKSHOP%20MANUAL.pdf

and here is another link that illustrates the overall height of the AC1 (series II direct injection) and AD1 engines:

http://www.maesco.com/products/lp/lp_a/lp_a.html

As can clearly be see there is a big difference in the overall height between the AC and AD engines, which is entirely attributable to the increased stroke of the AD engine


Back to your original inquiry:

My only concern for your scheme would be the AA1 engine may be a little underpowered for your intended application, hence you might like to consider using a Petter AB1 engine (same physical dimensions as the AA1 but 3" bore instead of 2.3/4"), hence it is slightly more powerful.

Another more interesting option would be to create a pseudo AC1 series I indirect injection engine, or AC1 series II direct injection engine) but built using either an AA1 or AB1 crankcase, this is possible because there is a high degree of parts interchangeability across the 'Petter A range' engines.
This would require an AC1 crankshaft, connecting rod, different fuel pump element (better still use a complete AC1 fuel pump assembly) and an AC1 or AB1 piston if you wanted to build a series I version, for series II it would still be possible but would be more expensive as this would additionally require a direct injection cylinder head, direct injection piston, cowling (bespoke to the series II engine), injector, injector clamp, high and pressure injector pipe, plus a few other minor parts.

How do I know this? Because in the past I built one of these engines for a friend of mine who just like you had an application that would only just fit an AA1 engine, but the engine was drastically underpowered for this application, so I built him an AC1 series II engine, using his AA1 engine as the starting point, which effectively put a stroker kit into his AA1 engine.

The only negative for this hybrid engine was it had no electric starting (as the AA1 crankcase has no provision for electric starting), and it was a bit lumpy on tick over due to the smaller diameter flywheel compared to what the AC1 engine would normally normally use.

Noting the other thread you started on this forum, PM me if you would like to discuss your requirements in more detail because as luck would have it, I have available a very tidy Petter AB1 fixed speed engine (4.5 BHP @ 3000RPM), and also all of the parts required to make it into a  pseudo AC1 series I engine, finally FYI I am UK based.

artfull dodger

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Re: Is a Petter AA1 smaller in size than the AC1?
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2017, 12:56:49 PM »
The AA or AB should have plenty of power, I can cut grass with the tired 8 hp petrol engine at idle rpm where it has little to no torque.  The AB in stock form should be fine in my little tractor.   Is there a cost effective way to ship them from the UK to the USA?   Last AA1 someone priced shipping was around 200 pounds sterling, which effectivly doubled the price of the engine to me.  As long as the AB1 has a keyed output on the crankshaft  on the geared side, I can work with no electric start.   Mike
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dieselgman

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Re: Is a Petter AA1 smaller in size than the AC1?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2017, 02:11:50 PM »
We have a large surplus of crankshafts, connecting rods, pistons, cylinders, rings... all brand new OEM from the Lister Kansas USA assembly plant. All of these were intended for AC1 series II, but with the parts interchangeability mentioned - probably will fit other models as well.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 02:14:15 PM by dieselgman »
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artfull dodger

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Re: Is a Petter AA1 smaller in size than the AC1?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2017, 02:20:59 PM »
Thanks for the info dieselgman!   I wish the AC1 would fit, But is much taller than the space under the hood.  The AA and AB are shorter in height and would be an easier fit.   You don't happen to have the parts to convert a fixed RPM AC1 to variable speed do you?   Finding those parts would be a big help in what engine I end up purchasing.  I do have an AC1 found in the USA, just a bit more than I can spend at the moment, but that could change.    Mike
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 02:25:58 PM by artfull dodger »
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listard-jp2

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Re: Is a Petter AA1 smaller in size than the AC1?
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2017, 06:09:57 PM »
As long as the AB1 has a keyed output on the crankshaft  on the geared side, I can work with no electric start.

That could be arranged, because at present it has an ultra rare raised handle starting arrangement on the timing gear end, which is usually only seen on marine applications (and which I would like to keep). However your requirement above is narrowing down your starting arrangements to either a rope start, or a geared up handle start.
Rope start would be the easiest and cheapest option, but it can be tricky to master, as it requires bouncing the engine over compression, as it is all but impossible to pull the rope and operate the decompresser lever at the same time (spill timing also needs to be spot on because if not the engine will kick back, and it can feel like your arm has being pulled off ;D).
Geared up handle start is much easier, but requires finding a lot of expensive component parts which are not that easy to find unless dieselgman can advise otherwise.
NOTE!: Some of these parts will be unique to the AA1 and AB1 engines due to the different size SAE bell housing when compared to the AC1 engine.

Having got the AB1 engine out today for a look over and to start, it reminded me of another AA1 engine I also have in stock that is fitted with 3:1 reduction gear output on the timing gear end.

PM with your email address so we can continue this discussion off forum in more detail, and so I can send you some photos of the AB1 engine as it presently stands.

Gary,
You mention the availability of OEM Lister Petter AC1 spares. Could you please PM me price and availability of say 4 off pistons, together with options on what sizes are available from STD to +0.040" oversize, to include postage to the UK, thanks.

artfull dodger

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Re: Is a Petter AA1 smaller in size than the AC1?
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2017, 06:40:55 PM »
I rope started my AC1 a few times even though I had both crank handle off the cam gear side and electric start.  Wasn't to bad.  I had training on diesel engine repair in tech school.  I prefer working on them over petrol(gas) engines.   I wont need the rare raised crank start, it wouldn't fit since the tractor has a bonnet(hood) that goes over the top of the engine.  Its easily opened to access the decomp lever to fire up the engine.   I like not having all the electric stuff as that is less to go wrong and need repair.   I can get a NOS Genuine Petter rope for starting off ebay.  I PM'd you my email addy.   Thanks  Mike
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