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Author Topic: Rings of Confidence  (Read 4136 times)

DumpDumpDump

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Rings of Confidence
« on: June 02, 2017, 05:10:11 PM »
Hi,

I recently acquired a SR1 (s.no: 2339SR1Z17) as fitted to a Winget 2S Dumper :). Previously this .75 ton dumper had been to shows etc and not worked hard for a long time. Engine starts ok, that doesn't mean easy all the time but I might still be low on the learning curve.

As it will start during this summer it is going to continue to be working hard. So I don't feel inclined (want to at all), to take it apart as a Lister/diesel virgin to try and 'diagnose' the issue. So here I am seeking help from the experienced for diagnosis, and hoping for simple 'try first' options that could do the trick.

Symptoms we have...
After a period of running (an hour or more) white to blue smoke is produced in quantity and a 'thinnish black oily' substance is spat from the pepperbox exhaust.

Sump oil passed gummed piston rings/scrappers or valve guide wear perhaps. Wear requires replacement so ideally my first hope would be some magic potion/ additive/ snake oil down the inlet side that can clean and restore my confidence in the rings.

That failing I guess I will need to put on a brave face buy a gasket set and prepare to strip.

All positive help welcomed.

Please be gentle with me :-[
DumpDumpDump
« Last Edit: June 02, 2017, 05:31:49 PM by DumpDumpDump »

EdDee

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Re: Rings of Confidence
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2017, 05:23:35 PM »
Hi DDD,

First question.... After an hour or so of light to unloaded running, or are you loading the engine up a bit?

Sounds a bit like its gumming the rings and not working hard enough....

Regds
Ed
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dieselgman

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Re: Rings of Confidence
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2017, 05:28:50 PM »
She most likely could use some good loading to heat things up properly and a bit of water injection to clean out the combustion and exhaust portions.

dieselgman
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DumpDumpDump

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Re: Rings of Confidence
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2017, 05:44:05 PM »
Hi,

Well there's a rapid response team!!!

I have called for a significant load on the engine a number of times eg on one occasion fully loaded the bin and dragged an 18" dia tree trunk 400 mtrs concurrently. admittedly only in 1st gear. This type of load is a bit sporadic but full throttle in second does give a bit of a bumpy ride through the field.

Conversely I have also let it idle for a while rather than go through the start routine (mea culpa), which incidentally always requires the rich setting and full throttle to start. (too low on the learning curve?)

dieselgman - how much water is a bit? and would this amount be  hand sprayed or poured down the inlet in dribs and drabs or one go?

dieselgman

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Re: Rings of Confidence
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2017, 08:31:51 PM »
The only trick to water injection would be getting the engine hot enough to steam off the water and not allow it past the rings. A spray bottle will do fine in most cases. There are numerous posts and threads on this forum about this topic. Just keep an eye on your lube oil and don't allow that to become water contaminated. In some cases, you might see water condensing in the crankcase and in extreme cases, maybe some emulsification with the oil (it will become milky in color).

dieselgman
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LowGear

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Re: Rings of Confidence
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2017, 03:22:57 PM »
How do you test compression on one of these?
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dieselgman

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Re: Rings of Confidence
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2017, 04:39:18 PM »
Compression testing requires a fixture that you clamp into the place of the injector... not the most common diagnosis approach though. It is generally much easier/better to test crankcase vacuum during operation for diagnosing ring and valve sealing issues.

dieselgman
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LowGear

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Re: Rings of Confidence
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2017, 08:18:37 PM »
I hope I haven't come to rely on you too much dieselgman but I figured you'd have the solution to my inquiry.
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listard-jp2

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Re: Rings of Confidence
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2017, 07:02:18 PM »

I'm thinking more exhaust Valve Guide.


I disagree, because when the exhaust valve opens the exhaust port will be at a higher pressure than what will allow oil to pass down the exhaust valve stem (excessive exhaust valve guide wear is more likely to contribute to a burnt out valve).

Conversely if the inlet valve guide had excessive clearance, the depression created in the inlet port when the inlet valve opens, will be sufficient to suck oil down the inlet valve guide,  for this reason you will only normally see valve stem seals fitted on the the inlet valve guide of diesel engines of this period, typical examples of such engines would be the Lister petter AD1 and 2 engines, and also Lister petter LT1 engines.

carlb23

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Re: Rings of Confidence
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2017, 11:50:29 AM »
I also agree that  if oil is getting by one of the valves it would be the intake not the exhaust.

LowGear

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Re: Rings of Confidence
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2017, 11:23:08 PM »
How about the venturi effect when the exhaust valve closes and the exhaust pulse continues on down the exhaust pipe?

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DumpDumpDump

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Re: Rings of Confidence
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2017, 09:52:31 AM »
Hi All and a big thanks to all, from your replies I have the following update on the SR1 powered Dumper [now christened Damien].

In accord with your notes and others on this forum I have been working it hard.

With poorly fitting exhaust/inlet manifolds for the sakes of a couple of minutes I thought I would fix this. Having removed them I could easily see a 'matching pair' of fuel leaks from the fuel filter assembly bleed screws. Seals perished. Did a temporary fix by cutting 2 from an old oil container lid insides. Promptly ordered and received a new fuel filter set. Thanks to my parts supplier.

What a state that filter was in! The new fuel filter (and a workout) gave rise to a slight improvement in performance but this may have been placebo. Next, snake oil time, I added a good dose of diesel 'injector cleaner' to the tank (just in case it helps).

After seeing the fuel filter and before the recommended hydro-surgery I thought I would change the oil. I changed the oil temporarily for some synthetic 10/40 stuff I had lying around for years. Then I warmed it up and with fair rpm's began to gingerly pour water down the intake from a bottle fitted with one of those drinking on/off valves. The crap vomiting from the exhaust seemed endless so I ended after about 0.5 litres.

I checked the oil later for water and there was none :)

I changed the oil again, this time including the filter. Just unbelievable that any oil was flowing around, even the filter was disintegrating with age. Again the seals were hard or shot.

So with fuel flow ok good supporting oil and confident water was not getting into the sump I warmed it up vigorously and with serious rpm's began to pour water down the intake. On occasion I over egged the water a little (that's quite a splash), heard the engine rpm fall off so backed off and the motor picked up again. This had prompted water to be spat from the exhaust along with a bit of oily residue. After a little over a litre I ended the session.

The effect was definite this time. Previously unable to attempt ANY rising incline as it would falter and stall now I am able to move across the site in 2nd/3 gears with impunity. That's a big improvement in performance.

I continue with the odd pouring and iaw glort's thinking on continued hydro-therapy I need to rig something up (linked to the rpm) to run this for a few hours as I go about over the next few months.

Still no signs of water in the crankcase.

It may be I am further up the learning curve but it now starts first time even after 3 weeks off. So I don't believe there is a compression issue.

I still get blue smoke and some black spit mostly after idling for too long. Exhaust or inlet I have no idea but Listard_JP2 does have that simple logic and the designer/design managers didn't put a seal on the one guide for nothing.

BUT is it possible to change the inlet valve guide seal without removing and splitting the head? If this is not possible then the solution would be head off for a top end overhaul.


glort could be onto a win-win here highlighting the cunning of gremlins to exploit unintended consequences.

Thanks to all again.

DumpDumpDump

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Re: Rings of Confidence
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2017, 10:49:54 AM »
Thanks glort, that's a lot of food for thought. Link to Damien having a drink.
http://Https://youtu.be/x8H2b2FQnDs