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Author Topic: waste oil use over view.  (Read 7050 times)

glort

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waste oil use over view.
« on: April 14, 2017, 11:50:08 AM »

Taken from posts elsewhere in response to a request for info on my practices with waste oil......


My relevant experience is running waste oils for over 14.5 years in my everyday vehicle(s) and never having to replace a worn injector pump yet and only a set of injectors that I was told needed doing when I bought the Vehicle and eventually I got a stuck injector. Put new injectors in the thing and it ran like a stung cat. I turned the IP down quite a bit and it still went the same as before.

Obviously one does not run filthy fuel through their engine unless they are terminally stupid. I guess that's a misconception of people whom have never used waste oil but have made up their minds to rubbish the idea anyway.
I filter my oil CLEANER than the standard for Pump Diesel.
I also make sure the oil is dried as Veg oil unlike Diesel can hold suspended water and nearly every of the hundreds of lots I have picked up Has had suspended water in it.  I dry it as a matter of course. The fuel I produce is so dry that you can add 1 or 2 drops of water to a cupful and test it and it still passes.

 I don't run garbage through my engine, not that stupid no matter what some people who don't like the idea want to make up.
Clean fuel is one of the proclivities of people that run waste oil.  The mind set is not to tip rubbish in their tanks but rather to go to over the top lengths to make the fuel more clean than standards require. Many also heat the oil to thin it which in a lot of cases is unnecessary if one looks at the viscosity standards issued by the pump manufacturers. They also start on Diesel and shut off on it to avoid problems that are more imagined than real in most cases. Myself I run straight Veg oil with the addition of 5-10% ULP on occasion.  5% ulp brings the ignition timing of the oil back closer to that of diesel which is helpful as most people don't re time the engine for oil.  In winter if it gets real cold I may add up to 10% ULP to help mainly with starting.
Most of the time I don't worry. If the engine takes a few more cranks to light off it gives the thicker sump oil bit more of a chance to prime and come up to pressure when the engine does light off. Seems many people want the thing to light soon as they look at the key but having been involved in racing where you wound the engine over to get oil pressure before you switched in the ignition, I tend to think slow starts are a plus not a problem.
Thing always starts in a predictable manner so that's all that counts to me.

I have built a small, compact and cheap to construct processor that I merely tip the fuel in, set it going and come back 30-90min later and it is done. I then pump the fuel into 25L drums or an IBC and it's ready for use. I change the on board fuel filter on my car every 6 Months as a preventative as I get the filters for nothing anyway. They are a little underrated for the full power of my vehicle so I keep them clean to prevent loss of top end power.
As I have the engine on my vehicle Dialed up for extra grunt, I also have been running a DIY water injection system to remove any deposits from my engine. I have only taken down one small China Diesel due to a Cracked Cylinder ( that of course all the Naysayers will blame the fuel for in an attempt to prove their point) which I also ran WI on.  The Piston, Head and ring lands were so clean they looked like they had been buffed with a clean rag.
Lots of people whom don't know anything about WI rubbish that will all sorts of fear mongering but reamin ignorant to the fact it's been used for decades on everything from Cars to Aircraft to ship engines.  It's still Currently used on a LOT of ship engines and BMW just put it on one of their performance Vehicles.

In doing WVO for so long I have seen all types of excuses and BS about waste oil wrecking pumps and engines and all the rest of it. The people whom do run it, and I have several personal friends I see all the time running it, have never had any such experience. It's the old thing of sledge what you don't know and believe every negative thing your read to defend your position.  That's more than fine with me, if everyone was on this then oil would be hard to find and I wouldn't be able to enjoy it the way I do.  I have no reason to want everyone doing this and apart from the misinformation people like yourself spread, really don't care who uses it or who does not.

I have heard a lot about oil killing engines and shortening their life but the thing that never fails to make me laugh at such attitudes is no one can ever tell me how long an engine should last.  How can they say it shortens their life if they can't say how long they should last in the first place? The ones that have thrown numbers out there I have always beaten substantially.

I have also been running waste oil in my Lister, Hatz, Lombardini, Ruggerini and 4 Chinese Vertical and horizontal stationary engines for well over 10 years. More recently I have been Blending it with Diesel in my Fathers Iseki Tractor.  Only comment from him who doesn't know I have been putting it in the thing is it has been running a lot more quietly and smoothly lately.

I wouldn't recommend waste oil in electronically injected engines but for mechanically pumped units there is zero problems. All the IP's I have come across on stationary engines, (and I have a few of them now!) are all basically the same simple plunger types. They are tough as nails and almost impossible to break. That said, I am also aware of a company in Germany that are making conversion kits for modern electronic engines to run Veg oil. From what I can see, there is no change to the fuel system at all and they just run some different fuel mapping and bigger fuel pumps or boosters probably to handle the extra Viscosity.  I might look into this some more with a view of buying a cheap electronic injected Vehicle for the Mrs to run round in and see how it goes. Even if I blend with 50% Diesel, still halves the cost of fuel.  Better alternative would be just go buy drums of Jet fuel as it's cheaper and thinner than diesel anyway therefore reducing the viscosity further for a given amount than Diesel.

There is no doubt that waste oils given proper pre filtering are a perfectly viable fuel and cause None of the problems people accuse them of.  I have yet to see or hear of a single engine failure caused by veg use. Yeah, there are loads of accusations but when you look at the cases, you always find they are nothing to do with the oil at all and a little further digging turns up loads of cases of the same engine that has never been near oil having the exact same problem.

I Fill my 200L drum manually from the settling tanks because I want the exercise. Takes about 10 min walking back and forth and filling and emptying. I can pump it, I just prefer to not to be too lazy and it gives me some resistance and cardio exercise I can well use.
From there I set the pump going which circulates the oil and filters it and dries it as it goes. In ideal conditions it can be done in 15 Min while I'm doing other things.  Mainly depends on the humidity and how wet the oil is. Filtering doesn't take much and the turnover of oil through the filter is high.  Mostly I give it a min of 90 minutes. Once the processor is loaded I can do whatever I want. Don't have to be there, I can go out and let it do its thing.  If I have to process when it's wet and cold and shitty, I might let it run all night.  haven't had to do that in a while. When the oil is done I change a valve on the processor and pump the oil into the drums through the filter so there is no possible way any molecule hasn't been through at least once.
I used to do a water test on every batch before decanting it but I haven't bothered for a long time now. I know the processor, been doing it so long,  I can read the weather and the oil and on the odd occasion I do a test for shits and giggles, it always passes with flying colors.  Of course many people don't dry their oil and still have no problem.  I like to be careful and as I have the processor set up to filter and dry and it takes no extra effort, why not.

The only time I don't dry my oil is when I'm interstate and running short and have to do a pickup on the road.  I can look at what is there and know whether it's OK or to look for another source.  Being that this oil goes in with the other I am certain of the quality of, any moisture content is going to be reduced a lot anyway.  Being I am on the road, the oil will be burnt quickly and not have a chance to sit round long enough to cause corrosion or growth problems in any event. Fats hold a lot more water than straight clear oil so as long as I don't pump slop, I'm safe as houses.

If I look at the cost of Diesel here, been around $1.20 a liter and my hands on time, call it say an hour all up to process 180L, ( which is way over estimating,) it's not hard to work out that I'm pretty much on doctors wages if I considered my time as so many harp on about. I don't consider it because obviously this is my hobby not my living and if I did it full time I'd make  a better than average wage with it.  Of course the other thing to consider is if I was working that hour in a regular job, I'd also be paying tax at better than 33%.  I do an interstate trip of 2500km all up every year and it usualy costs me about $20 in fuel because I will add some petrol to the oil when I get there because I always go in winter and want to stop any fat dropout in the cooler temps and the thing is loaded so I want the better performance.

One thing that hit home to my Son years ago was when he was doing his practice driving hours. Here learners are required to do 120 Hours practical driving experience under supervision before they can get their provisional license to drive on their own. My son had his way before any of his friends.
We would go driving any time we felt like it,  wherever we wanted. Frequently I would pick him up from his burger flipping job and we'd go driving for an hour or 2 depending on how he felt.  Often we would go on oil runs to make the trips more worthwhile. I had more oil than I could use from this and passed on the proceeds to a couple of mates whom never had so much in reserve ever before.

When my son got his licence before most of his friends including those that were up to a year older, he started asking why they hadn't got their hours up yet?  The reply was that unlike him, they couldn't rack up 6 or 12 hours a week driving around just to get hours up, they could only get their hours in at an opportune time when the family had to go somewhere because their parents could not afford the fuel just for them to drive around.  We never thought of this but when we worked it out, we could see the significant expense involved if we were buying fuel.  If we had to buy it, we would never been able to afford it either!  My son always was a bit dismissive of my oily proclivities until that time and realization of the cost of fuel set in.

Of course once he had his license and was going out, I hardly ever saw my truck. He always took that and left his car because it saved him the expense of fuel.  Of course all his mates wanted him to run them around as well.  At first I was annoyed he made a welter of it but then I realised while he was driving, he wasn't boozing up like a lot of them so I was happy.
Being a smarter kid he also took advantage of the free fuel situation.  A group of them wanted to go away for an end of school celebration.  My son said he would provide the transport and everyone else could cover his share of accommodation, food and drink.  As part of the trip was camping, he also threw in the sweetner of my covered trailer so they could take all the crap they wanted.  Being the truck is a 7 seater, it was an offer too good to refuse for the other 6 so my boy got the trip for free basically.  I filled the tank on the truck and put another 200L in the trailer and they went everywhere they wanted and beyond.

 I have a small Pool heater with a converted burner I made which I circulate the water through and into a very admittedly bogan looking car radiator at the back of the house with a couple of fans on it turned around. This is because the outlets of the radiator face the wrong way and it's easier and neater to run the hoses straight out than put bends in them. Having a straight shot with the fans into the room makes for better heat dispersal in the house. I was in the process of making a cover for it so it looked better but it's become a talking point with friends and visitors now so I'm not worried.
I can push as low as about 7Kw of heat which can be a bit much but as low as the burner is capable or some completely impractical output like around 80KW.  Could do significantly more if I increased the size of the Hoses from  the heat exchanger. The electrical consumption of this setup is under 300W
The next thing I want to look into is an absorption cooling system so I can cool the house as well as heat it by burning oil.

For fuel for my burners and heaters, the only processing I do with that is strain it through some felt.  All I have to do is get the larger particles out and it's good to go. The Burners I build have no fine jets or orifices to clog so the once through the material is enough and a settle reduces any water content also to be of no issue.  I tend to burn the waste engine oil people give me and I get from my own vehicles and my fathers business.
Sometimes I use it in the stationary engines and the China diesels particularly don't care one bit what they are fed.

I guess if you have a bad experience with something you'll always be adverse to it but if you like something and embrace it to work out the problems and solutions for them, then not only do the problems go away but you can have a lot of fun and enjoy the benefits they offer. To me and a lot of other people that is a feeling of security and independence and really getting something valuable for nothing.

 I love my diesels, all of them and the bottom line is they along with the waste fuel I run them on has given my family and I a better quality of life and indulgences we would not have been able to afford otherwise. It's given me a hobby and interest for a lot of years that has in fact paid hugely rather than been an expense. The exercise I get carting fuel drums around and doing things with this seems like fun rather than the chore of deliberate exercise.


Here are a couple of Vids from a while back that show how I process my oil and engines running on it as well as one of my many burners.
I still filter my oil the same way as the results are excellent and the setup works well for me. Last vid is one of my many wast oil burners I build for a whole range of purposes and configurations.
Next one I'm planning I'm going to aim for 1200Kw and I think If I can get a petrol powered blower to supply enough air, it should do that very easily.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQL5ff9ICUs[/youtube]   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQL5ff9ICUs

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUE1RQRAXlg[/youtube]   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUE1RQRAXlg

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2re80yF4[/youtube]    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2re80yF4

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt9xvB_hmWk&t=8s[/youtube]    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt9xvB_hmWk&t=8s

 




38ac

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Re: waste oil use over view.
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2017, 02:51:42 PM »
Interesting, I dont run my engines enough to spend what is required to burn waste oil. I do however heat my shop with a Lanair waste oil furnace and it saves me enough to by all my fuel needs for the diesels and then some.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

dax021

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Re: waste oil use over view.
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2017, 07:15:44 PM »
Thanks Glort, nicely detailed write up. I've got some WVO settling at the moment and I'm busy making a filter plant on your design.  Will be trying it in a couple of weeks time.

BruceM

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Re: waste oil use over view.
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2017, 09:43:52 PM »
The filter/drying drum process sure is simple! 

dax021

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Re: waste oil use over view.
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2017, 12:35:02 PM »
Hi Glort, how do those plastic irrigation type valves handle the heat?

BruceM, sounds like you have more on your mind.  Is there more to it than just this, and is the complicated part just starting?  I was just going to chuck it in the SR2 after this filtering stage.  Have I missed something?

Ed, waiting for you jump in sometime!  I have also read all your threads, by the way.

Still learning,
Peter

dieselgman

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Re: waste oil use over view.
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2017, 03:41:44 PM »
It will be interesting to see how the SR handles the alternative fuel since the SR uses direct injection and also a much different injector nozzle type (multi-orifice rather than pintle). If your filtration is perfect and RUG mixture is consistent and correct, I don't see any major problems. However, the SR is a MUCH lighter machine than the CS and could quickly suffer if it is unable to fully burn your fuel mixture. With just a slight nozzle problem, I have seen these frequently fully choked with carbon running on only clean diesel.

Good luck with your experiment! I look forward to reading about your results here!

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

glort

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Re: waste oil use over view.
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2017, 03:49:10 PM »
Hi Glort, how do those plastic irrigation type valves handle the heat?

A hell of a lot better than people give them Credit for!  :0)

I test all my plastic fittings by boiling them in a pot of water on the stove. If they don't melt, they are fine.
To avoid getting the pump too hot,I try to limit the temp of the oil to 70oC although I have had it above 80 several times.  Run that burner a bit hard, get distracted for a minute and there you are!
Makes for damn fast drying though!

As I run the system lower than I have tested the fittings to, Never a problem.

Poor Ed, He'd have a fit if he saw the engine oil quality I tipped on a bonfire to burn Rubbish today on the farm.  No sump gunk here, this stuff was thin, clean, no sludge to be seen.
 Even I felt a pang of regret just using it as fire starter.

glort

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Re: waste oil use over view.
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2017, 04:00:32 PM »
However, the SR is a MUCH lighter machine than the CS and could quickly suffer if it is unable to fully burn your fuel mixture. With just a slight nozzle problem, I have seen these frequently fully choked with carbon running on only clean diesel.


Which is exactly why Ed and I are such fans of water injection.
It cures pretty much all coking and carbon issues in the engine and exhaust.
Does not need to be at all complicated, sophisticated or expensive, just get some water in there and let it do the magic.  I wouldn't Run any alternative fuels in any Diesel without it. You don't always need it but it's cheap, reliable insurance against a lot of problems even if you are running that horrible, expensive stuff from the servo.

There are different theroys concerning veg/ WMO coking, most to do with having the fuel pre heated.
I think that is a load of Twaddle especially in simple mechanical Pumps like on listers and Chinese Diesels.
The real key factors I believe are injection rate and timing.

Over fuel the thing and it will Foul ( without WI)  Run it with the timing too far off ( which is usually retarded given oils slower light off rate) and that can cause trouble as well. Goes without saying your Injector needs to be in good health.

BruceM

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Re: waste oil use over view.
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2017, 05:05:31 PM »
Glort-  What do you think is the low end of temperature needed to dry the oil by your method?  I'm wondering because here at 5600 feet in AZ solar heating is more practical than elsewhere.  It's low humidity here, so I'm hoping 50-54F (Edit should read 50-54C)  temperatures might work; a few coils of 5/8 irrigation tube in parallel, covered with film come to mind as something very cheap to build.

Yesterday I ran a small air compressor, then my washing machine on my DIY sine inverter design...so I now have a viable power source for running your oil processor design pump and fan.  (I've had to run the Listeroid for AC, no matter how small the load, for the last 10 years.)  I already have a small pump which may be suitable.

« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 03:56:55 PM by BruceM »

dax021

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Re: waste oil use over view.
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2017, 05:07:46 PM »
Thanks everyone, will try my hand at a WI system one of these days (Ed gave a pretty good description in his chronicles).  As for timing, I know diddly squat about how to go about that.

I will keep you up to date once I start.

dieselgman

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Re: waste oil use over view.
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2017, 07:03:51 PM »
Timing is easy to change on the SR (addition or subtraction of shims under the pumps)... somewhat more difficult to determine though. On the 2-cylinder you will see TDC as well as Z (firing point) marks for each cylinder stamped into the flywheel... the firing point can be matched to the "spill point" for each pump. The Lister method calls for removing the delivery valve, installing a capillary tube, and rotating the cam back and forth until you can see the exact point where fuel starts and stops flowing through the pump. The manuals have a more detailed description of the process.

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

glort

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Re: waste oil use over view.
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2017, 11:32:05 AM »
Glort-  What do you think is the low end of temperature needed to dry the oil by your method? 


I'd say the only heat required is the oil be liquid.
Heat is not a necessity, it's an aid in speeding up the process.

The moisture will evaporate more readily the more the oil is above ambient temp but it's not needed.  Plenty of aeration is the real key.  I only heat in winter when the Humidity is High... which yes, it can be here. In summer, I never heat the oil although I might put the drum in the sun.  The pumps I have used always impart some heat to the oil so it is not at ambient for long but not far above it either.
 was
Humidity plays a BIG part in how fast oil Drys.  A few times I have dried oil the Humidity was really low. Threw me off.  Did a test shortly after loading the oil to see how wet it was and get an idea of the drying time and it was already dry... which I didn't really believe.  When I worked it was s was, I got 1000L through that day.

If you want some heat, you can always build an oil burner and usesome of the product to dry the rest.

buickanddeere

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Re: waste oil use over view.
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2017, 03:42:32 PM »
  Climate plays a factor. Here #2 summer diesel gells into wax on the fuel filters in the winter.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 03:33:55 AM by buickanddeere »

BruceM

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Re: waste oil use over view.
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2017, 04:00:46 PM »
Thanks Glort.  I didn't realize WVO processing could be done in such an elegantly simple manner. 

glort

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Re: waste oil use over view.
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2017, 05:42:42 PM »
  Climate plays a factor. Here #2 summer diesel sells into wax on the fuel filters in the winter.

Yeah, I couldn't stand living in some frozen for 3+ months of the year hell hole either. I like sun and warmth and the only snow I see to be when I drive 5 hours to the alpine region..... And I haven't been inclined to do that in 30+ years.