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UPDATE COMING!! Finally, I'm getting around to updating the Lister Engine Forum to the latest version of SMF!

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Author Topic: induction motor as generator fail  (Read 657 times)
dieselgman
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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2017, 08:07:00 PM »

Kohler made this design for many Listers marketed in the US... now out of favor and production. It required a DC commutator and lots of additional windings plus brushes to make into a starter motor.

dieselgman
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BruceM
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« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2017, 09:45:16 PM »

For using the ST-3/5 as motor, power transistors have advanced to the point that it is now more practical to do commutation via electronics, thus avoiding a major mechanical modification.  I think rotational position feedback will be required. (added to the shaft or pulley; maybe a just a couple magnets for two hall sensors)  The field coils can be alternated as well as the stator, if need be.  

I'm busy on an low EMI, 120V input inverter project now. I've got a modified square wave version with a single controlled rise/fall H-bridge and a toroidal step up transformer, and a stepped sine presently using 2 H-bridges and two toroidal transformers. I'm only doing 3 steps in each direction plus zero, at present.  The goal is to make motors happy; some get hot and growl on MSW.  This is a low frequency, transformer isolated design based on the venerable Trace SW design. Running 500 watts of heat lamps, the output AC can only be heard on the lowest end of the AM radio within a few inches of the power cord.  The DC side is totally silent.  My THD with my on-hand transformers is 18%; the wave is too broad at the top to get to 120VRMS.  A typical MSW output is 24%.  I should be able to get down to generator class which is 9-15% THD, or better.



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gusbratz
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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2017, 10:28:25 PM »

Well I got it working, after quite a bit of trial and error (2) 20uF caps between 2 legs and (3) more between the other leg. Yields about 250v no load then when I fire up a hand held grinder the voltage drops down to 110. If I grind real hard and stall It out the v drops off to nothing and the field collapses. It is weird to watch the frequency/voltage go all over the place as you grind hard then let off and restart it. Not my cup of tea and my curiosity is satisfied. It could work tied into a grid where you get a real steady load and have everything dialed in but for a stand alone generator that I  want to just plug stuff in and have it work it is no good. I didnít realize it would be so wild with the fluctuations. Never the less thanks for all the help getting it going but now I have to find something else to do with this little engine.
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glort
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« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2017, 10:07:15 AM »


You had the motor way over capped at 40 and 60 UF and not even on the winding's either. Probably under driving the thing if you had to have that much capacitance to get it to generate. 
Not surprised the thing fluctuated as much as it did in the least. you had in effect C3C going there.  :0)  That probably put a lot of preload on the engine and caused it to sag hen it made Voltage. As I said, I can bog a 12 HP Engine down with a 5.5 HP motor if I push it.

Anyway, you know it can work now and it would still be viable for your Dozer block heaters.
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glort
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« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2017, 10:08:41 AM »


I'm busy on an low EMI, 120V input inverter project now.


You are not under the handle of BruceS on another forum by any chance are you?
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BruceM
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« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2017, 09:11:33 PM »

Nope, not BruceS.  I'm Bruce M.
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glort
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« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2017, 11:37:14 AM »


Didn't think you were the same but there were some similarities that made me wonder a little.
One of them was NOT that you are a very nice and helpful guy and the other one is a bit of of a follower of a  greenwashed, self centered pathetic coward hell bent on pushing his own agendas, admin..... but is into electronics and DIY power.

I put the knife into the said greenwashed Admin yesterday by recommending this site and doing a long post extolling the Virtues of generators running on waste oil to a guy asking about off grid setups.   As this Admin is completely biased to " renewables" and can't stand anything other than greenwashed suggestions or discussions being made, I thought it was the perfect stir.  I did think I'd get some flack from other like minded inner city environmentalists but somewhat to my surprise, the post has got some appreciation from people for the information I mentioned.
 No comment from the admin in question as yet but I'm sure that's only because he hasn't seen it and there will be the predictable bleeding green heart rebuttals of why an IC engine is such a threat to humanity and every planet in the known Cosmos. 

Having now a few months experience with a solar setup and learning it's limitations, I was able to make a very good case for the reliability of generator power and the ability to have it any time, pretty much as much as you like and as long as you like as against the alternatives of Wind and Solar. I also mentioned the Benefits of Co gen as one of the things the guy asked about was home heating.

I know the mention of Waste oil will be enough to get this Admin clown going but I made particular reference to used engine oil in being easy to get anywhere and a great way to make power and heat by burning it either in an engine or a heater setup just to get him extra upset.
I really am such a mongeral but I have too much fun upsetting the narrow minded idealists like this whom think everyone has to worship the same fake and flawed ideas as they do or they are committing some crime.
I know this guy will come back with the typical "killing the world" BS but being a hypocrite, like most of the green obsessed, it won't be hard to shoot him down by mention of his own real life doings and the fact people that do what he does are not as "Low impact" and emission free as they like to kid themselves. This guy is very vocal about his emission free electric car but a quick search says where he lives the power comes from that dirty, terrible threat to the world, Coal.  No emissions from his tail pipe but 100 Miles away there are huge smoke stacks pouring out the very thing he pretends not to generate.

 
I wish there was more done with IMAGS to make them more versatile. I'm still convinced a controller that would allow normal stand alone generator type operation could not be that hard for the electronically knowledgeable to design and very cheap to make. Seems there are many papers written by uni students and the like but so one seems to come up with something easily built to work with the motors that they will share with others to build.
With the amount of cheap, reliable and broad range Boards coming from China these days, couldn't be a big task to make something and I think once done the market would be well and truly worth while.  There are certainly enough universal  AVR controller units being offered for regular generators.  There must be a demand out there for this especially given the lack of stand alone gen heads in many places.
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dax021
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« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2017, 01:27:51 PM »

Hi Glort, would you mind posting that link to your post on WMO?  I am still toying with this idea, and want to find out more.  Thanks
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LowGear
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« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2017, 03:44:36 PM »

Quote
One of them was NOT that you are a very nice and helpful guy and the other one is a bit of of a follower of a  greenwashed, self centered pathetic coward hell bent on pushing his own agendas, admin..... but is into electronics and DIY power.

Quote
I put the knife into the said greenwashed Admin yesterday by recommending this site and doing a long post extolling the Virtues of generators running on waste oil to a guy asking about off grid setups.



« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 03:46:35 PM by LowGear » Logged

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glort
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« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2017, 10:59:42 AM »

Hi Glort, would you mind posting that link to your post on WMO?  I am still toying with this idea, and want to find out more.  Thanks

For indexing and relevancy purposes I have put some info up from a few of the posts I wrote  here:   http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7849.0

Also put up some links to my Different oil related Vids.  You can click on the channel name to see the whole cringe worthy collection.

Feel free to ask any specifics.  Ed here is the resident Sump Gunk God ( WMO) while my own experiences are far greater with Veg oil  (WVO). 
They are very similar in operation though and for most purposes interchangeable in their use. I can get more veg than I need, Ed OTOH doesn't see it around but can procure WMO so uses that.
I can also get pretty much endless WMO ( and wish I could send it to Ed) but prefer and have set up for Veg. Generally I use the sump Gunk for the burners and furnace's.
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dax021
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« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2017, 01:01:53 PM »

Thanks Glort, yeah, I've read most of Ed's posts too, but without his vast knowledge on all things mechanical, I am far too timid to experiment on my Lister (yet!!).  I am offgrid and a failure would be the end of me.  He lives about 500Km's from me, and as soon as I get the opportunity, I would love to go visit him and "steal with my eyes"
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