Author Topic: Was an Indian version of the Lister VA engine ever made...........  (Read 4943 times)

listard-jp2

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As per the forum thread title, I would be interested to know if the Indian Listeriod engine suppliers ever made parts for, or manufactured a whole cloned version of the Lister VA engine (the air cooled version of the CS).

If so I would be interested to know if the parts would be interchangeable with genuine VA parts, and if so I would be grateful to hear of any contact details for a potential parts supplier.

As I am sure you are all aware a lot of the VA parts are specific to that engine, though some parts (such as the flywheel fan shroud, and air cooled flywheel) do bear a striking resemblance to the 2 and 3 cylinder HA, HB, and HR engines.


Thanks in anticipation of your replies.




38ac

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Re: Was an Indian version of the Lister VA engine ever made...........
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2017, 11:40:17 PM »
Not to my knowledge.
Quite a few years ago one of the former members here contacted India about a VA and they said sure!! Send us some money and a few months later a crate arrived but it didnt have a VA clone in it. They had chopped the camshaft extension off  and bolted an extra flywheel on the off side of an air cooled Petteroid, LOL.  And they  restamped the tag to say 650 RPM 8HP viola! India VA, LOL. I owned it for a while and bolted it down on my welding bench that weighs every bit of one ton and it vibrated that one table like it was on a shipping pallet! Should have kept it as a curiosity but traded it for an equally garbage PowerLine twin  listeroid.
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listard-jp2

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Re: Was an Indian version of the Lister VA engine ever made...........
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2017, 08:34:52 AM »
OK, thanks for that valuable insight, that was pretty much as I expected :(

The reason for my inquiry? Well having just returned from holiday, from the land where genuine Lister CS engines can be found with minimal effort, and Indian clone engines even more so. I have decided that after procrastinating about it for many years I am going to start accumulating the parts required to build a Lister VA2 engine.

As there are some significant differences between the cylinder block and cylinder head retaining stud pattern, stud size, and location when comparing a VA and CS crankcase, this would mean some major modification to a Lister CS twin cylinder crankcase. As this would be an irreversible modification, combined with the casting being a lot thinner on the CS crankcase where the 5/8" BSW tapped holes would be required to be placed. Hence there was a real chance I could have easily wrecked a genuine CS crankcase if this venture was not successful.

Because of this problem, I thought this project was dead in the water until I started looking at Indian Listeriod crankcases, and because of the crude nature of the castings the crankcase casting is significantly thicker on the top face, presumably to compensate for the many stiffening ribs the Indians chose not to reproduce.

So I went out and bought a nearly bare crankcase from one of my local contacts, for little more than scrap metal money, they thought that the intense heat and humidity had effected my judgement ;D As they had always known that I avoided buying Indian parts like the plague, but they were unaware of my grand scheme, and were easily persuaded to sell this item to me once money was mentioned, hence there smiling in the photo below. At this point it occurred to me how ironic this was, as I was going to use an Indian crankcase to build an engine that Listers could of easily done so but chose not too do so!

Collecting the near bare crankcase from the scrapyard owners:




Apart from a few internal components this was nearly a bare crankcase, and apart from the crankcase the only other part I intend to retain was the centre main bearing cap

Just a mock up in this photo to see what a VA cylinder head and barrel looks like when compared to the CS cylinder block and cylinder head



Notice the strategically place Sandvik Coromant inserted tip flat scraper, I have given this scraper so much abuse, and the edge of the insert is still as keen as it was when first fitted

Finally some local wildlife photographs:


The preying mantis is quite harmless to humans, but its a ruthless killing machine of insects its own size and bigger.



The giant Centipede can give you a really nasty bite, which would ruin your day, interestingly Kerosene is lethal for these insects.


Now back to the original purpose of this post, having thought about it in more detail, I have discovered a significant problem that I had not anticipated.

When using the unique air cooled VA flywheel on a twin cylinder application, the out of balance mass will be precisely 180 degrees out from its desired location. Hence without having to resort to carrying out permanent modification to an original item (cutting another keyway). I started this post, to see if an Indian equivalent item was available.

The only other options I can think of is modifying a Lister HA or HB flywheel as this is nearly the same item with the exception of the mounting arrangements (and dynamic balance) Or obtaining a VA flywheel that has worked loose on a crankshaft and could be reclaimed with a QD bushing or similar, and apart from having a profile cut blank I cannot think of any other alternative options.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2017, 09:49:37 AM by listard-jp2 »

38ac

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Re: Was an Indian version of the Lister VA engine ever made...........
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2017, 09:44:05 AM »
Interesting,  thanks for sharing that.  Two yeas ago I went to an auction, aka estate sale, in the mountains of Pa. in search of Bamford Z series engine parts at a former dealer. Was disappointed to find that the Bamford parts had all been loaded up and hauled away prior to the sale but was looking through the piles of scrap and came across some 3HP CS partd and not one but two fan side flywheels for a VA.  About that time it began snowing hard, and I mean HARD and I had to decide if I wanted any of it bad enough to get stranded for  a day or two and I high tailed out a there.  In that part of Pa.  they close the mountain roads when it snows and you are not going anywhere until the authorities say you can.   They were ready to close the road and only let me through because I had 4wd and I almost didn't make it.  I have a VA in the shed that is in disarray but it is too nice to part out.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2017, 09:51:59 AM by 38ac »
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listard-jp2

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Re: Was an Indian version of the Lister VA engine ever made...........
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2017, 10:01:22 AM »
/\ That's always the way it goes, these items are out there, and I will keep looking.

In the here and now, and knowing that you get the horn for all things Bamford, take a look at this photo:



Not been a Bamford expert myself, would you be able to identify what twin cylinder Bamford that would be?

This was one of many photos I took last year of an engine graveyard I encountered whilst on holiday.

38ac

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Re: Was an Indian version of the Lister VA engine ever made...........
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2017, 01:27:54 PM »
Nice, Bamford twin diesels are pretty thin on the ground anywhere and parts are non existent, never seen one in the states but it is possible one hangs out in some Amish engine shed. The photo would appear to be a Z series twin due to the governor box opening?  Going from memory the models were Z5- Z8 from am about 10HP to about 16 or so.  I have some literature but it is not in front of me.

The earlier "D" series Bamfords diesels are elegant engines in my book. For some reason none were brought here, at least in any quantity? Unlike the Z series of which I believe more were sold here than were sold in England, much like the VA.  I 'd love to own an SD of any size.  They made D twin also, they were designated DD tyoes. One gets around on the rally circuit as I have seen pictures in an issue of SEM.
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listard-jp2

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Re: Was an Indian version of the Lister VA engine ever made...........
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2017, 10:30:18 AM »
A couple more photos showing the limited progress I was able to make on this project.

Firstly photo shows the centre main bearing bolts and castelated nuts, and the difference between the Indian and Genuine Lister part



A closeup showing the funky design of Indian castelated nut



The thread on the Indian item was unusual as it measured 0.815" o/d x 14 TPI, whereas the Lister item is 7/8" x 9 BSW

Moving onto the oil distribution manifold, the Indian and genuine Lister item side by side. The genuine item is the lower one of the two. The Indian version was OK, however the thread forms on the steel adapter fittings was of dire quality, and require replacement.



Oil distribution pipes for comparison. The genuine Lister version has Brass fittings whereas the Indian version is steel



Removing the camshaft cast Iron bush, this was SUPER tight, and on the first attempt stripped the thread on the length of 16mm studding, hence came back the next day with M20 nuts and studding




Finally this was as far I got this year, a comparison between various Indian and genuine Lister cast iron camshaft bushes





/\ On the looking down view they are as follows: used Indian (as removed from the Indian crankcase i had just bought), new Lister, new Indian, used Lister, new Indian
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 10:38:01 AM by listard-jp2 »