Puppeteer

Author Topic: possibly my governor is wacky  (Read 15458 times)

tyssniffen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 178
    • View Profile
possibly my governor is wacky
« on: December 07, 2016, 02:07:15 AM »
so, after chasing every which way on this thread (is this belt slip? - http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7594.0 )  I'm wondering if in fact, there's some just wrong with my engine.

what I see, both when I hook in my house system to get power and when I plug in a space heater (1500w)... what I notice now (after various re-dos and tightenings) is the engine actually bears down a bunch and doesn't seem to recover. 

I start out at 60hz, and when I put on the 1500w heater, the engine bears down and hz drop to 56 or so, and don't seem to recover.

My little spring and tightener work fine -  I can change speed/voltage/hz easily enough with no load...

what should I look at to figure out if my governor is messed up? I've seen threads about it being 'sticky' or something?  How much am I going to be taking this thing apart?
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
    • View Profile
Re: possibly my governor is wacky
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2016, 04:25:45 AM »
If the governor has too much sag under load, you may need to change to a slightly lighter force spring. Too weak and it will hunt. There are lots of old threads on governor tweaks.

Your no load speed should be set to 63 Hz, and then your 2300 watt load should be 59 Hz.  That's nearly as good as these governors get.  It will vary a bit with temperature.

The easiest way to diagnose a binding problem is to watch the throttle linkage while someone else engages the load.  If it doesn't open the throttle when bogging, the sliding yoke which connects to the IP arm is one likely culpret. If so you'll see the pin cock a bit crooked as it binds. Check the pin and hole it slides in.  Mine was so loose and rough I had to bush it after smoothing the pin.  Now it just needs annual greasing.

You can also manually open the throttle under load  to see if the engine will then respond as it should to rule out engine power issues.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 04:35:54 AM by BruceM »

EdDee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
    • View Profile
Re: possibly my governor is wacky
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2016, 09:08:07 AM »
Hey Guys,

I eventually got the sh!ts with trying to sort out governor linkage slack and bind.... Too loose and it sags, too tight and it overruns... Eventually all I did was put a SMALL spring on the rack to take out the slop in the linkages, after making 100% sure that everything was absolutely free (and a little sloppy at that).... This has cleaned up the hunting et al and has the added safety of closing the rack should a link detach.....

Just a thought...

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

38ac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2324
    • View Profile
Re: possibly my governor is wacky
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2016, 11:35:24 AM »
The Indians are pretty good at messing up the relationship of the governor weight arms to the sliding collar on the camshaft and it causes things to act as you discribe. This has been covered if you try searching this forum or I can dig out a cam shaft and take some pictures. You might also have the wrong weights. The lighter weights that are used in the high rpm versions  will cause the governor to be more "lazy" if the engine is run at 6/1 speeds.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 11:37:07 AM by 38ac »
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

Hugh Conway

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 529
    • View Profile
Re: possibly my governor is wacky
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2016, 07:48:53 PM »
@tyssniffen.......

If you have not already done so, sign in and have a look at this thread in the WOK.

  http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=6976.0

I have been running this way for more than 3 years and many hundreds of hours, still have the same result.
YMMV, but this has worked out very well for me and others.
BTW, my Dursley 6/1 with its original gov spring cannot achieve this accuracy.

No load 60.4Hz
3000+W load 59.4Hz

Cheers,
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

Tom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1746
  • Green power is good.
    • View Profile
Re: possibly my governor is wacky
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2016, 08:33:58 PM »
Here in California, we know our governor is wacky. I don't think a spring will fix it. </thread drift>
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

tyssniffen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 178
    • View Profile
Re: possibly my governor is wacky
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2016, 05:36:55 AM »
thank you for all the replies, and yes, I should do more thread research... I did some, but start to get confused as people chase down different areas of concern.

you know, I bought this 6/1 with Stover wheels, but now have the regular (bigger) wagon wheels on it.  would the weights be different for stovers vs wagon wheels??

I'm going to go make some videos of governor spring and arm.  

Where does one get a new spring? better question - what is the name /weight/ length of a proper spring?

I see this from that suggested thread:
"Home Depot stock number is 759 541 and comes in a pack of two different size springs for a total of four. The sizes are: 7/16 in X 2 inch X .062 in with a safe working load of 18 lbs - these are the two you don't want to use. In the same package is: 9/16 in X 3 in X .054 in with a safe working load of 9.55 lbs - this one worked well for me out of the box. So for a couple dollars you may have a repeatable solution. Remember, where the India guy decided to drill the stud hole for the other end of the spring is probably random but I hope it will be close."
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 05:39:50 AM by tyssniffen »
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

gusbratz

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 91
    • View Profile
Re: possibly my governor is wacky
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2016, 05:10:12 PM »
i bought those exact springs after I read that thread and put one on my DES8/1. to maintain 850rpm I have to have it all the way out with the adjusting nut cranked to the limit.  it is a weaker spring than my original listeroid spring.  I didn't see any improvement in speed control over the stock spring.

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
    • View Profile
Re: possibly my governor is wacky
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2016, 06:16:19 PM »
I also didn't find the Home Depot spring the best for my older Metro 6/1. It likes to ACE hardware springs in parallel.  The HD spring does work very well on my neighbor's 8/1 (propane conversion) swinging a CA110 carburetor!


Samo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
    • View Profile
Re: possibly my governor is wacky
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2016, 09:49:04 PM »
If accuracy is really important, especially under load conditions my experience is the Listeroid governor needs help. The arduino mod I've made to my Listeroid gen set maintains precise frequency under all conditions I've thrown at it...  (so far) But the flip side is it's another part to go wrong at some stage....

Samo
Lister CS 12/2 & JKSON 10/1 Listeroid

dieselspanner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 726
    • View Profile
Re: possibly my governor is wacky
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2016, 08:05:09 AM »
Hi All

Slowly, very slowly, as other projects allow I'm working towards  the Start-o-matic type set up Glort proposes.

Perhaps not with all the automatic power distribution but certainly with the low oil level, over temperature/speed  and an automatic start and shut down set up.
Luckily I have a mate who's as keen as me, but far more electronically gifted, I do to PCB's what grit does to clockwork (Thanks Mr Pratchett) so the plumbing and wiring is down to me.

Having read of various solutions to oil level monitoring on here I'm thinking of a remote oil reservoir, with a free flow pipe between the sealed reservoir and the sump, the levels remaining the same, and the pressure over the oil balanced with another pipe from the top of the crank case, the whole issue connected with flexible pipes and mounted on a hinged plate with a light spring underneath.

As the oil level drops the decrease in weight would allow the remote reservoir to rise and close a micro switch shutting down the Lister via the control system. As long as there was sufficient mass to hold the reservoir firmly down, against the thumping, the first time it 'jumped' it should, in theory trip out.

As usual, all comments, input, advice and hoots of derision welcome!

Cheers Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

dieselspanner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 726
    • View Profile
Re: possibly my governor is wacky
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2016, 08:08:56 AM »


Oops, double posting!!
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 08:14:56 AM by dieselspanner »
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

EdDee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
    • View Profile
Re: possibly my governor is wacky
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2016, 08:41:54 AM »
Hi DS,

That balance system would work, but I think you will run into vibration and sensitivity problems, as well as a fair chance that the linkages could bind and give you additional headaches... What about a "sight glass" type tube, plumbed exterior in the same manner, close to the crankcase, with a float which has a small magnet in it - Use a couple of reed switches a-la burglar alarm door sensors for top/bottom level detection...

I have done this type of sensor previously, quite a while back, on a hydraulic resevoir, it works well, is relatively robust, cheap, easy, adjustable.... It doesn't have to be a glass or plastic pipe, copper or ali will work too, that's what I ended up using when the glass tube broke due to unskilled interference!!

I think that BruceM might have used a similar on one of his projects....(Not sure though)

Just a thought...

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

38ac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2324
    • View Profile
Re: possibly my governor is wacky
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2016, 12:06:10 PM »


As usual, all comments, input, advice and hoots of derision welcome!

Cheers Stef

I have several things to say about that and others who wish to fret and worry about oil usage and lubriucation

There is a much bigger difference between a splash only 'roid and the original pump and two sump  system than meets the casual eye.  

A single sump 'roid only has to loose about coffee cup full of of oil  and the engine gets ZERO lubrication while the OEM system can  lose all BUT a coffee cup full before it quits working entirely and that is more than a casual bit difference!!

The OEM oil pump has proven to been absolutely reliable over 80 or so years. Pumping what is in the sump even when it resembles septic tank liquids or road tar instead of oil.

Do you intend to run the engine 24-7 until you cannot afford to adding oil before you preform repairs? If so then I would worry about what is going on with the oil level and pressure.  If not it is my experience that the engine will become impossible to start ,smoke like the dickens if you do get it started , blow by like crazy,knock etc  PRIOR to it consuming all the oil in the crankcase in a full days operation.  Lister knew what it was doing when it designed the crankcase capacity.

My opinion?, If it is going to be shut down each day and you plan tend to the engine in some manner before it is started again I believe you would better off spending your worry (and money) on things like getting hit by a meteorite  ;) than on how to protect the engine from lubrication related failures.

   If you are planning on running 24-7  till ???  then change direction at this point and time before you waste much $$$ and purchase a Kubota or one of the later model Lister Petter engines with the 24-7 engine protection packages. OR one of the old industrial engines such as a Blackstone or Ruston that was designed to run 24-7,,

something the CS Lister was not designed to do in spite of legend and lore.

Well,,, You asked,  ;D ;D
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 12:08:01 PM by 38ac »
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
    • View Profile
Re: possibly my governor is wacky
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2016, 05:02:46 PM »
As usual, good points, 38AC.  Oil level on a single sump Listeroid is a critical thing.

I added a visual sight tube with magnet in float, to my splash only Listeroid (a single sump Metro).  I have two reed switches zip tied to the sight tube, one for oil too high and one for oil too low.  Either will cause an automatic shut down.

My controller is a PICAXE 40X2 chip, which preceded the Arduino popularity.  The Picaxe has been in service for about 10+ years without a hiccup.  There's a 350 foot, optically isolated 600 baud current loop to my shop which has a Picaxe based remote control/status panel.

The single chip controllers of today make integrating the processor into the custom control/interface board very easy. The processor needs no support logic whatsoever, just a 2 pin header for serial downloader for the Picaxe.  Or just us a 40 pin socket and program it off the board.  The value of a board to hold a chip that doesn't need support chips eludes me!

I can share code or schematics for someone who is serious, no looky lou's please.