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Author Topic: DES 8/1 generator build  (Read 40719 times)

listard-jp2

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2016, 12:32:11 PM »
It will be very interesting to see how the new Lister/Petter fares with sourcing almost everything in India and China... I happen to know that they are now stocking and branding a lot of the stuff that they would have rejected a short time ago. I also know that many improvements in critical parts have been pushed through in that country and this will benefit the industry as a whole.

In the UK it is at least possible to identify items originating from this source, as the new style packaging now features QR codes.

the old saying "trying to make a silk purse from a sows ear" comes to mind.

So does " you can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter" ;D


I never really had to work with straight pipe treads before (they seem like a stupid idea) so i covered them with pipe dope and sandwiched o-rings on the back of the fittings. copper washers would have been better but my assortment does not go that big.

Nothing wrong with BSP parallel threads, when used in the correct context, what you have experienced is yet another perfect example of the Indians deviating from the original Dursley design, with no thought given to its consequences. On a genuine Lister CS engine, the coarse oil filter strainer fitting has a shoulder which then has a fibre washer fitted between it and the crankcase to form an oil tight seal. The threaded elbow on the threaded end that screws into the oil strainer boss would originally been a BSP taper thread.


Whilst on the subject of thread forms, I don't understand why the Indians do not offer  NPT threaded components for water and exhaust flanges as an option for those customers in the Americas.


I also note that many original CS owners are using Rajkot parts...

From a UK perspective, that is certainly true to an extent. Most of these products are been bought by people who show these engines, and do not use them intensively. Conversely other users who need an engine to provide reliable power are still very wary of using Indian sourced parts.

38ac

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2016, 02:38:08 PM »
Your cross over tube is another example of why I preach to  take nothing for granted and take the engine completely down.
 The tube should be shortened so it does not cover the LH supply tube when it is against the stop in the RH fitting. It also should have enough bend that it is held in place once the RH fitting is tightened.
Your oil supply fittings are per OEM. It's not how things were done here in the states but A good supply of sealing washers or the means to make them is a necessity when working on a CS or clone or any other European engine.  I dont like your fix but if it holds oil it is hard to argue with.

The dipper in a oil pump equipped engine goes longways, period. The amount of oil moving around inside of the engine is incredible due to the oil coming from the mains running out the throws and being flung every where.. It does not need to be assisted by a sideways mounted dipper. In fact Lister severely limited the oil coming from the longways mounted dipper with a tray mounted between it and the crankshaft that is equipped with a narrow slot.  A fact check for the show me crowd (of which I am one ;D) is to start your engine and let it run for one minute, then shut it down and quickly remove the crank case door. Hint ,have plenty of rags ready to use.
 I do not subscribe to the more oil moving cant hurt theory.  In fact there is good reason to NOT increase the splash, one being oil consumption past the rings but perhaps larger is the fact that your only means of dirt separation is settlement in the sump.
  TRB engines that do not have an oil pump and the associated splash nor the tray under the dipper still do not need a sideways dipper. I have switched every engine that I have ever had my fingers in and a far as I know they are all still running, some every day.  The other reason for doing so is sideways mounted dippers are known to break off when the engine is run in cold temps with thick oil.
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gusbratz

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2016, 06:13:53 PM »
I was worried about the fatigue of the oil dipper also, another fact with a splash system is oil foaming if too high a level is carried or too big of a dipper is used. so yes sometimes less is more. I did make an oil pump handle. I  used an old pin spanner that was getting tossed at work. It broke my heart to cut up a williams wrech but i guess it's better than the fate it had in the metal junk dumpster at work.  Here is my oil pipe solution. i drilled out the fittings and brazed bent copper pipes into them, the bends allow me to flex them a little to put the compression connector in the middle. I also made a better tappet guide hold down clamp on the mill. The next REAL BIG problem is the rod bearing. the crank mics at 4.998 and 4.9975. nice and round and even as far as i am concerned. but the hole in rod is all out of round and bigger on one side than the other. once the bearing is installed it flexes it out of round as well. the india soulution was .018 of shims on it to get a good clearnce at the tightest point. ( i bet they just go by feel and shim till it's not binding up.) i wonder if i could use my sunnen hone on the inside of the bearing with it torqued up to get it round. i don't dare hone the rod bearing bore out because it  allready mics bigger than the rod bearing itself. I am not sure how i can get any bearing crush with that setup.  any ideas? here are some numbers,
BEARING SHELL O.D------2.750
ROD BORE WITH CAP TORQUED ON IN VICE-------2.758 diagonal both ways, vertical 2.754 on right 2.752 on left
BEARING BORE INSTALLED IN ROD WITH CAP TORQUED. NO SHIMS---- diagonal 2.502 & 2.496, vertical 2.502 on right 2.498 on left
BEARING BORE INSTALLED IN ROD WITH .009 SHIM.  diagonal 2.498 2.502, vertical 2.505 both sides
note: how the side to side deviation goes away once the shims are added. that makes me think once i start shimming the bearing is only touching on the sides not on the top and bottom due to the lack of crush and the also the fact that the supplied shims don't go in between the bearings. I will have to cut my own out.




dieselgman

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2016, 07:49:38 PM »
I like your work!

Replace or re-size the conrod big end. It is common practice to take a slight shave off the mating faces and then re-hone the internal diameter to proper size (accounting for bearing crush). There are specialized tools for this in many rebuild shops. Our Alaska shop has one, but no one there at the moment to do the work. If you want to try another conrod, just let me know.

dieselgman
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32 coupe

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2016, 08:53:11 PM »

Yep, that is some nice work !
Love the hold down.

Gary


Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"

gusbratz

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2016, 11:33:57 PM »
i think I may take you up on your offer gary, sort of feels like giveing up though.  :'( I started to imagine ways to fabricate a clamping jig for the conrod using the wristpin bushing. I figured I could tram a pin on the mill and clamp the rod with that then I could set my hone up in the mill and hone it out. since it would be clamped with the  wirst pin hole that would ensure both bores were parallel and resize the big end  in one shot. but while getting set up I noticed a split in the wrist pin bushing. where they pressed it in. so......hmm I guess I will give you a call tomorrow.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 11:37:16 PM by gusbratz »

gusbratz

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2016, 01:40:47 PM »
pressed that bushing out this morning to see what the divet in it was, looks like that seam was there on purpose. like the kind of bushing you would see in a cheap shock absorber or vulcanized into a rubber bushing not what you would expect in an enigne, the spare i recieved with the engine looks much better. also noticed a small hole in the surface of the cyl. not sure if i could just fill that in with lead before i put the head gasket on. wish it was farther away from the cyl bore.




38ac

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2016, 02:11:11 PM »
I have not been able to find an OEM spec for either of the rod bores. I have some "specs" that I came up with using measurements and assumptions but I cant lay my fingers on them at the moment.   The taper in the rod bore is both understandable and explainable, basically bad practice and or worn out equipment.   Out of round however is difficult to achieve with a hone. It would appear that they either honed that big end with one or two of the small OEM shims in place? or perhaps a generous amount of sand and grit?  That would explain both the out of round and taper. It is also possible that rods and caps were switched after honing. Anyway I think you are on the right track by starting with another rod.

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dieselgman

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2016, 07:47:50 PM »
The steel-backed gudgeon pin bushing (with the split) is in keeping with the more modern design technology. It is easier to install, but must be done with care and then reamed to size for your wrist-pin.

We have not found a published spec for the rod big-end either. Just rod journals... the rest must be derived from the engineering norms I suppose.

I am sending out a new replacement connecting rod plus another cylinder block to deal with that hidden pin-hole in the water jacket. Better to assume that it is porous in more than one spot than to try and repair and have potential future problems.

dieselgman
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32 coupe

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2016, 09:29:10 PM »

Hey Gus
I don't know what head gasket you have but if it is a stock Indian type we have found if you soak
it in "mop and glow" then let it dry for a.day or 2 it will help with the weaping the stock type gaskets
are prone to do.


Gary

« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 09:31:02 PM by 32 coupe »
Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"

gusbratz

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #55 on: October 20, 2016, 11:55:25 PM »
first off big thanks to gary from Diesel electric service for sending out the new parts, it's not their fault the indian quality is so bad but they are replaceing them anyway and i really appreciate it. not a lot of places would do that. When i need parts for my LR1 or my listeroid they will be my first call. while i wait for parts i thought i would grout the engine frame so it has some time to set up. never done one before but always wanted to. once i got it in position i spent the morning with a machinist level and some washers and shim stock. then built a frame for the grout. then mixed it up in a bucket with a drill powered mixer. i thought i had it about right so i tried to work it in and it wouldn't flow. went and added some more water and tried again and still no go. then i added a bunch of water. under the mixer it looks so fluid but once i got to the frame it was about like melty soft soft serve ice cream. by then the first stuff i put in was getting stiff and i could see time was of the essence. i had to work real hard with a tuck pointing trowel all the way around pushing it in. it would have been way better with a helper on the other side and we could have worked our way around. better yet would have been to mix it up way wetter than i did. in addition to my other mistakes the frame was so close to the engine that i couldn't just pour it of the bucket i had to sort of swish it out of a coffee can. in the end i had a mess. i then went around with a sponge and a trowel cleaning with the clean corner of the sponge and then rinsing it in a bucket. a little tedious but better than trying to get hardened grout off the engine. we will see how it works out. things i learned: make the frame bigger so it's easy to pour it in, make the grout plenty wet, have your trowels and sponges ready because grout sets up fast. a helper would be nice.....



BruceM

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2016, 02:13:20 AM »
Looking good! 

You should use 38ACs very effective method of getting your flywheel counterbalance weights adjusted and matched.  With the bedded concrete mount it will make fine tuning the balance either unnecessary or a very minor job. Just add to both counterbalance weights if you feel the floor vibrating, or opposite the counterbalance if the head is moving fore and aft too much.  On my neighbor's DES 8/1 we were quite good without any extra weight at all, just the weights needed to adjust counterweight to where it's supposed to be and matching the two flywheels. I always add lead instead of drilling, due to laziness.

Best Wishes,
Bruce


gusbratz

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2016, 11:19:18 AM »
I definitely want to balance the flywheels, I have studied many of the old posts here on the methods used to weigh and balance the counterweight on the engine. What is the consensus on the best balancing factor? 67% of the reciprocating mass  was posted for the 6/1 is it the same for the 8/1?

38ac

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2016, 12:19:41 PM »
Yes the after sale support from DES is second to none.
The best balance number will vary depending on your exact operating RPM.  The 6/1 percentage is not the same as an 8/1 due to cast iron piston vs aluminum. The aluminum piston engines are much easier to get settled own and more forgiving of changes in RPM.
I have not spent much time with a calculator nor kept written records so I cant even give you a ballpark figure.  If you have read my posts (rants?) on the subject I put a lot of effort into getting the offset weight in the correct relationship with the crank throw and the same amount for both flywheels. From there it is a 15 minute job to settle the engine down nicely by what most here know as the Mr X method
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 12:23:08 PM by 38ac »
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gusbratz

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2016, 11:02:43 PM »
some more progress. I bought an old 1940's L model gravely oil filter housing and mounted it on the side of the engine. some re-bending of the tubing and scrounging for fittings. I didn't want to mount it upside down but the direction of the flow sort of forced me too. In the end i was glad it worked out this way because the holes i drilled and tapped went into the open void under the crank case floor and i didn't have to deal with sealing up any oil leaks. i was sort of on the fence about pissing with the head but decided to clean the valve stems and it was a good thing i did. i had a tough time getting the intake valve out. had to drive it through due to so much paint. it would have bent a pushrod and then stuck open if i had tried to just run it.once i had it apart  i reground the valve seats and valves. you can see on the left the intake valve after i ground it before lapping while on the right the exaust valve as fit by india. grinding the seats came out nice but just a bit low in the seat. i wish it had come out in the middle of the seat. i guess when i de-coke at 1000 hours i will check it out good and decide if i want to learn how to put new seats into the head.