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Author Topic: Blasphemy..... Solar power.  (Read 49978 times)

Samo

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Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
« Reply #195 on: October 25, 2017, 08:46:29 AM »
Very interesting to read of the setups and opinions...

In my system I have an 86F cap across each battery, while I'm only using 4 x 200Ah batteries, they "should" be taking the brunt of the surge current (washing machine start up etc), being lower internal resistance. Though I've not tried to prove that claim (no time). Each one cost as much as a battery but they do add to the overall current capacity of the system and I'm confident will help extend the life of my AGM batteries. As long as I keep the DOD low, they will give many years of service yet (4 years so far)...

The other technology I'd like to try is the Edison - Nickel Iron battery, no doubt there's some wild claims out there, however the original Edison batteries were very long lived, and while not as efficient or easy to maintain as AGM, an interesting potential option that I'd like to explore non the less...

Samo
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starfire

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Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
« Reply #196 on: October 25, 2017, 09:57:07 AM »
Well Glort, me old cobber, you will get a buzz out of this.
It seems these "ultra" batteries linked to  above are an AUSTRALIAN invention.
Bugger me.
And it looks like they are a good thing.... a vastly improved lead acid, same energy density but can withstand far greater DoD without  damage..
Interesting watch for those interested.,, the interweb is wonderful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1jusadHkmM

glort

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Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
« Reply #197 on: October 25, 2017, 10:46:53 AM »

... And I'd love it to be Sunday every day and I'd love sweets to grow on tress but they just don't and I'm realistic.....

I love this guy!
And that was after he spent a couple of minutes sticking up the whining safety sissys.  Legend!

An Aussie came up with it 'eh? Something else for the Kiwis to get pissy about and insult the Skips over!  :laugh:

Seems a very simple modification to make to a regular battery and if it works nearly as well as advertised, It could make a huge difference in the storage market.  I wonder if it will be allowed to come to market and if so, if it will be affordable?
If I was a battery manufacturer, I'm not sure that I'd want a battery lasting 10, 20 or 100 Times longer than what I was selling fast as I could make them now UNLESS I could make 10, 20, 100 times more profit out the things.

It's foolish to think that because huge gains can be made for little cost they will be implemented. I reckon there is every chance this will be buried and as usual, only done for special Military or other limited purposes.  Just can't see them suddenly putting battery's in cars that all the sudden last 10X longer or selling storage batteries that you can now get 50 years out of without thinking about it. 
Seems like a BIG revenue loss to me and that alone, probably more than anything, is enough to kill the concept for general public use.   

From another angle, Imagine what a technology like that could do to a company like Tesla for instance. That over hyped company has spent billions of investors money building a giggle factory to make cells with maybe slower charging, Higher cost and definately shorter life and worse discharge characteristics. The LA battery may not be great in their electric cars but there is every chance they could shit can their power wall business right quick.
Yeah, the LA battery is bigger and heavier but it also lasts pretty much forever and costs a fraction of the powerbawl.
As well as taking out tesla, there are other companies such as LG, Samsung and others that all have their pet  technology's they have sunk billions into.
I reckon they would rather pool together and buy the rights to the tech for a billion bucks and bury it rather than let it get into the mainstream and take their storage businesses down.

I think it's a great and remarkable discovery being so cheap, easy and practical to do but I also think that's probably a reason why we will never be able to buy it ourselves.

starfire

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Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
« Reply #198 on: October 25, 2017, 10:57:39 AM »
Ummm, us Kiwis are selling them already..... Something else for the Ozzys to get pissy about and insult the Kiwis over!  :)

https://www.hiteksolar.co.nz/blogs/news/106430214-why-should-i-consider-using-lead-carbon-batteries

Samo

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Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
« Reply #199 on: October 25, 2017, 11:11:17 AM »
Narada sell them here  (oz) too, and for some commentary...

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2607369

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glort

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Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
« Reply #200 on: October 25, 2017, 01:12:36 PM »
Something else for the Ozzys to get pissy about and insult the Kiwis over!  :)

Yeah, that's original!  ::)


Seems these things may not be all they promise after all.
If it sounds too good to be true....

Maybe they are holding back?  Make the things seem not so great so the idea is forgotten about but do them properly where it counts.
Sounds like a conspiracy theory but these days I don't discount anything as being too far fetched.
In any case, this isn't the latest battery tech. If they were selling them last year if not earlier, they were thought of a lot earlier than that!

BruceM

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Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
« Reply #201 on: October 25, 2017, 04:16:52 PM »
The lead -carbon battery was tested by Sandia before 2009.  Note that this is only 10% DOD so not the full story. 
http://www.altdotenergy.com/2009/01/could-lead-carbon-batteries-be-energy-storage-game-changer/

I also found full reports from Sandia.  They did extensive testing of 3-4% carbon added to the negative plate of VRLA (AGM) type batteries and the results were impressive.  They don't sulfate when partially cycled repeatedly, with no "full up" periods to equalize cells.  So carbon doped negative plates in AGM type batteries are the real deal.

It is suspicious that this hasn't progressed further given this rather impressive independent testing. But it is also suspicious that AGM battery prices have continued to be set at more than double that of wet lead given the reduced lead needed for the same capacity. 



« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 04:31:39 PM by BruceM »

LowGear

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Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
« Reply #202 on: October 25, 2017, 05:56:38 PM »
Mr. Starfire,

I get it.

I've popped for two AGM batteries in my life.  Both lasted a good strong 10+ years.  They still penciled out on the high side but it was fun pulling that length of life out of a battery.

Casey
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starfire

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Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
« Reply #203 on: October 25, 2017, 08:44:19 PM »
But it is also suspicious that AGM battery prices have continued to be set at more than double that of wet lead given the reduced lead needed for the same capacity. 

Bruce, i suspect battery pricing has nothing to do with manufacturing cost, but Watt hours capacity.... watt they can get away with consumers.
Here is a lead carbon for sale here in NZ

https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/caravans-motorhomes/parts-accessories/batteries-inverters/auction-1448246050.htm


thats 120 ah 12 volt at $960nz  This price seems excessive for a little added carbon when a normal 115ah 12 volt from the same retail outlet is $305..... or 1/3rd the price

https://www.trademe.co.nz/business-farming-industry/industrial/generators-power-supply/solar/auction-1448245446.htm

The first is rated at the full 120 ah at 100 percent DOD whereas the second is usually expected to supply whatever at around  30 percent DoD normally.

I cannot figure out the chemistry of these, carbon is inert, im thinking its presence is more mechanical, the carbon disrupting and preventing sulphate crystals to  form/link in the negative plates, thereby keeping them in solution.
The supercapacitor reference I think is rubbish.

on a related note....

I have over time, as most of us have, tried the battery revitalisation thing.
I have had good success with this
Short out the faulty battery for several days.
Connect it BACKWARDS to a cheap old school non intelligent charger.
Charge it for a few days at low current, a few amps is fine.
Short the battery again, then charge normally with correct polarity.

The idea of this, sulphation can only occur on the negative plates, reversing polarity causes the sulphates to either dissolve, or drop to the bottom.


mike90045

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Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
« Reply #204 on: October 27, 2017, 06:19:00 AM »
2 topics here

a) don't use poisonous automotive anti-freeze with a domestic water system, if you get a pinhole leak in the heat-ex ......

b) I have been running a large NiFe bank since about 2011 (48v, 800ah, daily cycling about 11Kwh) and will look up the proper KoH /  H2O  mix ratio.  It should improve the voltage fluctuation you see, but NiFe does have a much wider working voltage range than lead-acid

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Samo

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Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
« Reply #205 on: October 27, 2017, 06:41:53 AM »
Ok Mike,

You have my full attention on this one. I've currently use AGM, but from all the research to date NiFe is the technology I'm keen on. You've had some time with them, and I'd be very interested in your real world appraisal:

Maintenance
Charge/Use cycles
Efficiency
DOD - how far down do you run them?
How easy to live with, what's the up/down of it?

cheers,
Samo
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BruceM

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Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
« Reply #206 on: October 27, 2017, 03:58:26 PM »
Hi Mike,  I remember you were initially having some trouble with your charge controller not being able to fully charge the NiFe bank due to the higher voltages needed.  But I guess since NiFe don't really care about that, not suffering from sulfation, it matters little.  I'm also looking forward to your first hand assessment of NiFe.

I like your simple solution for the well pump. I've got the same pump with about 200 feet of head to my gravity feed tank on the hill.  I've getting ready to add some PV and some sort of timer/sun sensor for topping off the tank daily via my new inverter also; I can reprogram my battery bank controller to add some new logic like-  if noon and batteries fully charged, and sun level good...pump water unless batteries come out of float.  Do you have any sun level sensing to keep the pump off on a dark day or do you do that manually?



mike90045

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Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
« Reply #207 on: October 27, 2017, 04:26:35 PM »
NiFe info
my install:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.209715335768594.51674.120212794718849&type=1&l=9747e4dde6

> Maintenance
  lots, every 2 weeks, I add 5 or 6 gallons distilled, 20 gall was too much to do at a time, so I'd shifted the cycles around so I'm only doing a quarter of the bank at any 1 time.

> Charge/Use cycles
 ?? I charge and use them

> Efficiency
  about 60%, that's why they use so much water.

> DOD - how far down do you run them?
 the bank is 40,800 watt hours, (51v [42 cells] * 800Ah). My running voltage at sunrise is about 52v in summer, and 49v winter (longer nights) I figure my nightime consumption runs about 5Kwh. I sized to properly allow for their high internal resistance, and to supply starting surge for deep well pump, so I generally have low voltage droop.  I charge below recommended voltage, because that would fry my inverter.


> How easy to live with, what's the up/down of it?
easy to live with, no winter worries about sulfation, they don't care about partial charge. Edison original pocket construction was quite robust, 100+ year life on calls, but only 5 years on electrolyte. I'm going to have to dump & refill (nasty, messy process) my cells this summer.
my cells came from China

mike90045

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Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
« Reply #208 on: October 27, 2017, 04:29:30 PM »
Bruce - I use a common Intermatic timer for 11am-4pm run window, and manually switch off in poor sun.

BruceM

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Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
« Reply #209 on: October 27, 2017, 05:29:50 PM »
Thanks Mike. Your report is most interesting.  The water use is a real eye opener.  Adding 5-6 gallons of distilled water to all the cells every 2 weeks is a show stopper for me.  Is this due to overcharging and thus avoidable with a NiFE smart controller? What does bubble production vs voltage and charge current over time look like?  If they only start really bubbling when fully charged-  charge detection seems the answer.   

Or perhaps there is an automatic waterer available?