Introduction/ New project/ Questions

[dieselspanner]

Hi '99

For what my 6 eggs are worth........

I'd hone the bore as least as possible, and go with an aluminium piston, sure you'h have to re balance the fly wheels but it would leave you the option to run up to 8/1 spec if you wanted a few more HP later.

Grind the crankpin and fit oversized  big end shells.

Leave the mains and fit taper roller bearings. This also give you the modern 'lip' oil seals.

I fitted TRB's as the mains were shocking, even with new bushes, however they were made for the aforementioned In'jun crans with no filet / radius on the mains and I ended up modd'ing them with the angle grinder and a flap wheel. honest! Plenty of Loctite 610 on the final fit and they sound great. However I've yet to do any long term work with the motor.

Whilst you've the motor in bits don't for get to check the cam shaft 'lash', I did and It'll mean another tear down later......

I guess mostly it depends on the depth of your pockets, available facilities and desire for perfection!

Cheers Stef

[38ac]

.00075" is some mighty fine measur'en
Two routes for you to take, worry less about hand sanding out every imperfection or have the crank ground.  Remember that you are not transferring 200 HP through a .750" wide bearing surface such as in a hi performance V-8.  Do not think that I advocate sloppy build practice as I do not but there are things that are import and need to be so-so and things that do not need to be so-so. The crankshaft journals MUST be round in cross section and flat in profile and that takes precedence over a nice and shiny  surface in a slow speed, low pressure application if your not going to grind the crank in a machine.
Bottom line is if the pitting is less than 25% of the surface area it doesn't need to be fretted and you will likely do more damage to the important things than good in trying to hand sand them all out. Think of the pits as nice little oil holding pockets 

[broncodriver99]

Hi '99

For what my 6 eggs are worth........

I'd hone the bore as least as possible, and go with an aluminium piston, sure you'h have to re balance the fly wheels but it would leave you the option to run up to 8/1 spec if you wanted a few more HP later.

Grind the crankpin and fit oversized  big end shells.

Leave the mains and fit taper roller bearings. This also give you the modern 'lip' oil seals.

I fitted TRB's as the mains were shocking, even with new bushes, however they were made for the aforementioned In'jun crans with no filet / radius on the mains and I ended up modd'ing them with the angle grinder and a flap wheel. honest! Plenty of Loctite 610 on the final fit and they sound great. However I've yet to do any long term work with the motor.

Whilst you've the motor in bits don't for get to check the cam shaft 'lash', I did and It'll mean another tear down later......

I guess mostly it depends on the depth of your pockets, available facilities and desire for perfection!

Cheers Stef

Hi Stef,

I was reading your thread and the TRB's are an option I have contemplated. I hadn't considered the aluminum piston but will give it some thought. I would really like to keep this as original as possible but it is good to know there are other options if that isn't possible. I do have some lash in the cam and intend to replace the collar and bushing to correct it. I think that was the source of the issues that caused the fuel tappet wear. The more I dig into this Lister the more I think someone ran it until it was slam worn out, had the cylinder bored and replaced the piston, then ran it until it was slam worn out again. All of the bearing part numbers are of the original 5-1/ designation which was two L/P numbering systems ago. I am thinking these may all be the original bearings and all that was rebuilt was the cylinder.

As far as my desire for perfection, well, I tend to be a perfectionist. It was drilled into my head at a young age to do things once and get them right the first time. I strive for "as good as I can make it" and sometimes go overboard but I try not to spend silly money on something for the sake of perfection.

Thank you for the input.
BD99

[broncodriver99]

.00075" is some mighty fine measur'en
Two routes for you to take, worry less about hand sanding out every imperfection or have the crank ground.  Remember that you are not transferring 200 HP through a .750" wide bearing surface such as in a hi performance V-8.  Do not think that I advocate sloppy build practice as I do not but there are things that are import and need to be so-so and things that do not need to be so-so. The crankshaft journals MUST be round in cross section and flat in profile and that takes precedence over a nice and shiny  surface in a slow speed, low pressure application if your not going to grind the crank in a machine.
Bottom line is if the pitting is less than 25% of the surface area it doesn't need to be fretted and you will likely do more damage to the important things than good in trying to hand sand them all out. Think of the pits as nice little oil holding pockets 

Thank You 38ac,

I am guessing at the .00075. I measure between .0007" and .0008". It could be .00074.

That answers a lot of my question. I am used to working with highly loaded bearings where surface imperfection must be nil to none. I figured there is some leeway in the bushings but don't want to risk galling. I plan to find a shop capable of putting this on a machine for the rod journal at a minimum. Because of the oiling arrangement I am definitely more concerned about the crank pin than the mains.

Thanks Again.

BD99

[38ac]

I am guessing at the .00075. I measure between .0007" and .0008". It could be .00074.


BD99

You got that chit right,  
I have a 0-1" Starrett electronic micrometer that direct reads in 1/100,000" I wont even use it as it drives a person nuts. A person's hands warming the part changes the measurement as many times as you care to take them and did I mention what touching the frame of the micrometer does?,,, LOL. I used to post on some machinist forums and there was always some clown saying he was making parts to .000000000000000000000000000000000003" or some ridiculous tolorance   on his 10EE Monarch or his Decker Mill and I'd call em all out. I made no friends but I've turned the handles on too many machine tools and measured too many parts to be fooled by such

[broncodriver99]

You got that chit right,  
I have a 0-1" Starrett electronic micrometer that direct reads in 1/100,000" I wont even use it as it drives a person nuts.

That would drive me crazy. I tend to fret over 10ths of a thou. I tend to be the guy who always has a standard handy, just because the weather changed. I can't imagine a digital readout that changed every time i looked at it. It does boggle the mind the accuracy that modern tools can offer. NASA would be proud.

[broncodriver99]

I did a little more work on the Lister. I decided to let the crank and cylinder be for now while I am waiting on some info and parts availability. I moved on to the cylinder head. I pulled the valves and springs and gave it all a once over. The valves have the slightest amount of play in the guides. I measure about a thou of wear from the non contact areas of the valves to the areas that are in the guides. The seats look good but may be slightly recessed. I will measure that tomorrow. The exhaust valve has some pitting so I will be adding a set of valves to my parts list. I pulled the COV and then realized I should have done that before I pulled the whole thing down as the inner chamber is stuck in the head. I left it soaking in some penetrating oil.

I also cleaned up the cam. I polished the journals and the eccentrics with some 1200 grit and mic'd everything. The shaft is .875" nominal with what seems to be a theme of .002" clearance. The non contact areas measure .873". Both bushing journals measure .8715". It looks like there is 1-2 thousands wear which seems reasonable to me. I am not sure there is much to be gained by replacing the cam shaft. I plan on replacing both cam bushings which should snug things up a bit. I hope to be back at it tomorrow.

BTW, are there a lot of snails in England? I pulled about a half dozen snail shells out of the water passages of the head. Curious.

[dieselspanner]

There are loads of snails in the UK, not only that, the Romans brought their favourite edible breeds as well as dormice, from the States, we got Kentucky Fried and Micky D's, more my type of snack, and the wrappers don't foul the fuel filters,

I had hazel nut shells under the rocker cover of mine, doubtless some one from Oz will be keen to let us know about the Red Backs cin their alternator..........

Cheers
Stef

[broncodriver99]

There are loads of snails in the UK, not only that, the Romans brought their favourite edible breeds as well as dormice, from the States, we got Kentucky Fried and Micky D's, more my type of snack, and the wrappers don't foul the fuel filters,

I had hazel nut shells under the rocker cover of mine, doubtless some one from Oz will be keen to let us know about the Red Backs cin their alternator..........

Cheers
Stef

I will definitely take KFC and McD over snails and mice any day.

[broncodriver99]

I spent a couple of hours cleaning up today.

I scraped a bunch of mineral out of the water passages in the head. There is still a lot in there but it is going to need a soak to get to the rest of it. I also pulled the water jacket doors on the cylinder and scraped a ton of sediment/rust/mineral out. It will need a good soak as well.

The valves and seats have right much pitting and will need replaced. The seats have been replaced at some time. I measured the valve recess and it is .095-.097 which is pretty much the max spec, no matter though as they will be new when I am done.

I measure about .010" play in the valve guides. Does anyone have a spec for this? I probably need to replace those as well. This parts list is getting pretty long. 

Here are a couple of pics. There appears to be a crack between the valve seats. It is hard to tell of it is a crack or a gouge, I can catch a nail on it in both directions. I inspected the areas in the valve chambers to see if there was evidence that it carried through the casting but couldn't see any evidence of it. It will be easier to tell when the seats are removed. There is a water passage directly above that area that I may try to get some water down in to see if it is a crack and will weep. I also put a straight edge on the head and there is a small crown right in the middle, the area between the valve seats and the pre chamber. Everything else is good and flat. . The valve seats look to be a little bigger than necessary. I am not crazy about how close the edge of the intake seat is to the head gasket. It appears to intrude into the fire ring area a little.

That's about it for today.

[38ac]

I am not crazy about the choice of inserts there either but since they are there,,,  here is how I would progress with that head were it in my shop because I think it is cracked as that location is typical and is from overheating. Sometimes the crack ends just above the deck, sometimes it extends up into the swirl chamber opposite the injector.  Sometimes they leak compression when cracked there, sometimes not. Two ways to find out, make a plate and pressure check it or bolt it on, put a clear upper hose on the engine and run it.
So Instead of putting a bunch of time and effort into a head that may be not usable I would make the head "serviceable" by first taking a light cut with the mill to true up the deck, this also raises the valve heads a bit.  Then  install new guides and valves. You should shoot for .002-.003 clearance stem to guide. Then I would touch up those seats removing as little material as possible. If the recession is a bit deep then make sure your bump clearance is at the minimum spec. If not shoot for the middle of the spec. Install the head run the engine and check for leaks. If it does leak from that crack I have had zero luck with repairing them (lots of $$ TWICE) and replace them usually with a  new 7 stud head from Gary.  Good OEM spare heads on this side of the pond are very hard to find.

Cross your fingers, good luck with it!
Butch

[broncodriver99]

Thank you Butch. The more I think about it the more I think it is beyond primary service. I may do exactly as you suggest and toss it on the shelf as a backup if it is salvageable. I am really concerned with the crack and the likelihood that if it hasn't already traveled into the water jacket, at some point down the road it will. I would be more comfortable starting with a head that doesn't have any issues. Those valve seats are really bugging me anyway. Thank you for the valve stem spec. Decisions. Decisions. 

Russell

[38ac]

If you want to keep the engine all Lister there are several places to check, Gary would be my first check, then Hoover in Pa.  I have had the need twice and not found a head in the US for sale.  They are everywhere in England but of course plus shipping.  The 7 stud clone heads from DES are good basics to build a working head from. I have several out working with no issues. I would still give that one a shot before giving up on it myself.

[EdDee]

Hi Bronco,

Myself, being one of those idiots who would rather spend a week fixing a clothespeg rather than tossing and replacing, I would drill/tap/insert/peen some soft iron screws into the crack - That is after I had installed the head and checked it for a leak into the water jacket. If there is no leak, all is well and keep going - if it does leak, nothing ventured, nothing gained, give it a go!

Here is a link to the basic process of lock and stitch from a co in the UK... I have done similar, many times before, with an awesome success rate!!

https://www.metalock.co.uk/typical-on-site-repairs/metal-stitching.aspx

The crack is so short, if it is a crack rather than a gouge, i think you wouldn't need the stitch sections, only the overlapping locks to secure and seal it by the looks of it.  If it were my head - I would reseat it with seats that are way shallower in angle cut with what is in there, so the fire ring isn't compromised, then cut the seats to spec, then lock/stitch and peen the crack, possibly into the edge of the replaced seat, then a VERY light skim to ensure seats et al are perfectly level with the head (because of the fire ring) and away you go.... But that's just me!

I have done a similar crack repair out in the field (Riverbank actually), with only the most basic of hand tools before, in fact, even draw filed the head instead of skimming it.... Amazing what can be done when you are young, dumb and full of..... But it in my defence, it was a engine stuck out in the back of beyond, with no easy access to it except by foot... Took about 3hrs to get to it once we got to the farm, the roads had all washed away... Incidentally, I ordered a new head for it and the farmer kept it in his shed for many years, last I heard, the temp repair was still going strong!!

For no other reason, if not just for personal satisfaction and learning, give it a go rather than write it off!! (If its already stuffed, at best you can unstuff it for a few pennies!!)

Lol
Ed

PS: Found a nice youtube vid of an actual repair.... You might find it interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq0wfU4ZaKk

[broncodriver99]

Hi EdDee,

I was just thinking about those stitch fasteners last night. I am on the lookout for another head but I think I will take 38ac's advice and at least have this one milled to see how bad it is. I hope to put in a few hours on the Lister this afternoon. I need to finish cleaning up the valve seats to make sure the pitting can be cut out with a valve job and give the crack another look. I may have to figure out what these seats are so they can be replaced. If they have to come out it will definitely be easier to inspect and make a decision.

Thanks for the info.