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Author Topic: Introduction/ New project/ Questions  (Read 21647 times)

EdDee

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2017, 09:52:34 AM »
Hi Bronco,

Myself, being one of those idiots who would rather spend a week fixing a clothespeg rather than tossing and replacing, I would drill/tap/insert/peen some soft iron screws into the crack - That is after I had installed the head and checked it for a leak into the water jacket. If there is no leak, all is well and keep going - if it does leak, nothing ventured, nothing gained, give it a go!

Here is a link to the basic process of lock and stitch from a co in the UK... I have done similar, many times before, with an awesome success rate!!

https://www.metalock.co.uk/typical-on-site-repairs/metal-stitching.aspx

The crack is so short, if it is a crack rather than a gouge, i think you wouldn't need the stitch sections, only the overlapping locks to secure and seal it by the looks of it.  If it were my head - I would reseat it with seats that are way shallower in angle cut with what is in there, so the fire ring isn't compromised, then cut the seats to spec, then lock/stitch and peen the crack, possibly into the edge of the replaced seat, then a VERY light skim to ensure seats et al are perfectly level with the head (because of the fire ring) and away you go.... But that's just me!

I have done a similar crack repair out in the field (Riverbank actually), with only the most basic of hand tools before, in fact, even draw filed the head instead of skimming it.... Amazing what can be done when you are young, dumb and full of..... But it in my defence, it was a engine stuck out in the back of beyond, with no easy access to it except by foot... Took about 3hrs to get to it once we got to the farm, the roads had all washed away... Incidentally, I ordered a new head for it and the farmer kept it in his shed for many years, last I heard, the temp repair was still going strong!!

For no other reason, if not just for personal satisfaction and learning, give it a go rather than write it off!! (If its already stuffed, at best you can unstuff it for a few pennies!!)

Lol
Ed

PS: Found a nice youtube vid of an actual repair.... You might find it interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq0wfU4ZaKk
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 10:30:48 AM by EdDee »
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broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2017, 03:25:39 PM »
Hi EdDee,

I was just thinking about those stitch fasteners last night. I am on the lookout for another head but I think I will take 38ac's advice and at least have this one milled to see how bad it is. I hope to put in a few hours on the Lister this afternoon. I need to finish cleaning up the valve seats to make sure the pitting can be cut out with a valve job and give the crack another look. I may have to figure out what these seats are so they can be replaced. If they have to come out it will definitely be easier to inspect and make a decision.

Thanks for the info.

mikenash

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2017, 11:05:39 PM »
Hi EdDee,

I was just thinking about those stitch fasteners last night. I am on the lookout for another head but I think I will take 38ac's advice and at least have this one milled to see how bad it is. I hope to put in a few hours on the Lister this afternoon. I need to finish cleaning up the valve seats to make sure the pitting can be cut out with a valve job and give the crack another look. I may have to figure out what these seats are so they can be replaced. If they have to come out it will definitely be easier to inspect and make a decision.

Thanks for the info.


Hi - been reading this thread with interest - especially the stitch repairs

And I have been reading what various folks have been saying about the search for a new head?

FWIW I have a 5-stud Indian head running on my CS - it came from this guy:

http://www.oldtimerengines.com.au/

His name's Rob and he has lots of spares not listed on the website.

I just bought a head off him with the credit card and he shipped it - the freight wasn't THAT bad, $$-wise

And, because he's in $AUS, you might find it works out OK

Just a comment - no harm in an email . . .

I have found Rob to be unfailingly knowledgeable and helpful

Cheers, Mike

dieselgman

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2017, 11:23:05 PM »
People were commenting on not finding Original Equipment cylinder heads... there has never been any problem finding the Indian production.

There are at least two stocking dealers I know of in the USA with a full line of Indian parts for the antique CS series - everything you could need.

For general information as well, there are plenty of Original Equipment cores in Kansas USA for those purists wanting only the best British iron.



dieselgman
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 11:25:20 PM by dieselgman »
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broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2017, 12:23:27 AM »
I got a little more done today.

I have come to the conclusion that it is definitely a crack in the head, not a gouge.

There does appear to be enough material left in the valve seats to re-cut them(lightly). They are cut pretty low though, either from the first go round or after multiple valve jobs. I measured the seats in case I have to track down replacements and they are two different sizes!!!! Not just that but one appears to be standard and one metric!!!! I had a flashback to working on an old AMC/Jeep, thankfully no Torx bolts on a Lister though.  :laugh:

So, the exhaust seat is 1.875" OD 1.23" ID. The exhaust seat is a little rough on the ID so I am guessing it was originally 1-7/32". The intake seat is 1.791" (45.5mm) OD 1.259" (32mm) ID. I guess they just used what they had?  ???

After that I stripped the crankcase for the most part, drained the oil, and unbolted it from the frame. It needs a good pressure washing. I then decided to clean up and inspect the oil pump. I am happy to say I found a part that isn't completely worn out and in need of replacement.  ;D I pulled it apart and cleaned everything up. There is no scoring in the bore or on the plunger and only about .001" wear on the plunger. The area of the plunger that contacts the seal has about .005" wear. The original felt seal is intact and appears to be in good shape. Once all back together it pumps air and will not compress when I block the outlet port. Good enough for me. One part down, only the rest of it to go.

Till next time.

veggie

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #65 on: January 29, 2017, 01:03:38 AM »

Someone once posted an equivalent set of valve guides that are interchangeable with the Lister guides. Listeroid also have modern counterparts.
Can't remember where I saw it, but there is a readily available set of guides off a more modern engine that will fit.
A cylinder head shop would be able to march them for you (probably with better materials) if they had the dimensions.

Veggie
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broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #66 on: February 09, 2017, 12:53:04 AM »
It's been a couple of weeks since my last update. Between work, weather, and a cold workshop I have only had a few afternoons here and there to get some time in on the Lister. Yesterday and today were both 72 degrees in February in Virginia.  :o Normally its in the 30's overcast and a chance of snow. Spent both afternoons enjoying the weather and working on the Lister.  ;D

Been spending a lot of time cleaning up parts and measuring everything for wear. Let's just say EVERYTHING has wear. I have a lot of small parts that need replacement or repair.

I have been calling around looking for answers and options on what to do, if anything, with the cylinder. It seems that most of the guys still in the business of chroming cylinders do small motorsports type cylinders and most have or are shifting to Nikasil/NiCom coatings. I spoke to USChrome at length. Very knowledgeable guy and nice enough to spend a few minutes explaining the difference between the old hard chrome and the newer products. He explained what would need to be done with the cylinder and their process of removing the old chrome and re-coating with Nikasil. He gave me a price and asked for some pictures and dimensions to better get an idea of what they could do with it. They have a limitation with the length of the bore as their diamond hones don't have a very long stroke. After getting a couple of questions answered by 38ac and a better understanding of the wear specs I think that the cylinder is good as it is. I may look into options for de-glazing it but I have read mixed opinions on doing anything to the chrome. It is good to know that there is another option out there similar to the original coating if the cylinder is damaged or worn beyond limits at some point.

I ordered a few parts from Gary over at DES to get me started and to take some measurements with. I Emailed him Friday afternoon and the parts showed up Monday. Now that is quick!

Other than that I spent most of my time cleaning up, degreasing, and stripping the crankcase. It was a job. The entire inside was coated in the same muck that is seen in the tear down pictures at the beginning of the thread. Kerosene cut most of the heavy stuff off and thinned the rest of it enough that a heavy duty degreaser or brake clean handled it with multiple scrub brushes and scrapers of course. After the last rinse down there was little or no green paint left and the primer was pretty thin so I decided to go ahead and strip the outside down to bare cast. I have some paint samples on the way that hopefully will be pretty close to the original green. The plan is an epoxy primer/sealer followed by a couple of coats of single stage urethane with a little clear mixed into the final coat for durability. I am contemplating picking up some glyptol and putting another coat on the inside. Here are a few pics of the crankcase. All cleaned up and ready for a coat of paint. I think it cleaned up pretty well. And, a couple of parts that I picked up from DES and a few that I had gotten elsewhere earlier.







« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 08:17:06 PM by broncodriver99 »

broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #67 on: February 09, 2017, 01:53:04 AM »
Oops, almost forgot. I also measured ring gap today. @ top .013" @ 1/4 down .009" @ middle .010" @ 3/4 down .011" @ bottom .012". There is a little taper and a little wear at the ridge as was suggested but all in all pretty good. I need to go find the spec for where they should be, that seems a little tight.

broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2018, 12:42:37 AM »
Well, it appears these things have an affinity for multiplying like any other hobby. Clearly if you leave a stack of Lister CS parts sitting in a corner somewhere it will end up with a couple of friends.




mactoollover2005

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #69 on: April 06, 2018, 07:38:25 PM »
hi . Been enjoying the process your going thru to rebuild your engine. keep up the great work and I look forward to your updates.

Thank You.

Derek
Still working on finding a lister gennie.
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broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2018, 12:51:15 AM »
Thanks Derek. I am working on it but it is slow going.

I do have a little update though.

I managed to get the base that I acquired stripped down and repainted. It took a couple of weekends of free time to get 60 years of gunk, grime, rust, and paint off but I got it stripped down. The biggest challenge was getting all of the rust and buildup off of the underside. It took quite the collection of brushes, wire wheels, scrapers, and a needle scaler to get into all the nooks and crannies. I treated the rust that had gotten into the pores that I couldn't get to with evaporust and ended up with a nice grey iron surface. I also had to take a rotary burr to the adjustment slots as they had been pretty poorly finished at Lister when the base was cast and it looked like a hammer and chisel mechanic may have been in there at some point. I coated the underside with glyptol and I may go back for a second coat at some point as there are a couple of spots that are a little thin. The top got 2 coats of epoxy primer and 2 coats of single stage urethane paint. The paint turned out pretty close to the original Lister paint that I have to compare to. It may be a tad darker. I will try to get better pics for comparison once the paint has cured and I can handle it to get it out into the sunlight. Here are a couple of pics as I was finishing up this evening. Poor lighting but gives and idea.



« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 12:53:45 AM by broncodriver99 »

mactoollover2005

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #71 on: August 02, 2018, 08:41:39 PM »
Nice.  By the time your project is completed it will probably be close to being in show genny condition. im still looking for a 10/1 or 12/1 or 12/2 for myself, unfortunately in all my travels here in alberta Ca. I haven't seen 1 that is available for sale or in decent enough shape to rebuild. Seen 2 that needed crankshafts and cases not including anything else the rebuild was going to require.

Good Job and keep up the work, the light at the end of the tunnel is a lot brighter than when you first started this project.

Derek
Still working on finding a lister gennie.
Derek

BruceM

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #72 on: August 02, 2018, 10:22:10 PM »
1st class workmanship and finish work, Bronco!  She's going to be a gem when you're finished.

mikenash

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #73 on: August 02, 2018, 11:19:42 PM »

Great work

I will watch with real interest the process of getting the top deck of the crankcase perpendicular to the centre-line of the bore and how that relates to the crankshaft being perpendicular to it, and getting the crush right for clearance at the piston/head interface, and how "square" the piston comes out in relation to the plane of the head . . .

Will be really interesting to see how all that comes out in an engine that is 3/4 of a century old - it may need no work at all to be in tolerance?

I'm interested in the comparison between how it will measure up compared with what has needed doing to some Indian ones to make them straight, vertical, square, perpendicular etc etc

I'm interested, too, in how you will address bolting it down to a base and getting each "foot/corner" snug down to the base without loading any of them up more than the others

Everyone's approaches to these questions seems to be slightly different

The process that you have gone through with examining the cylinder, thinking about the wear and where it is; then thinking about the low working revs, big rotational masses and under-stressed design and coming up with the conclusion that the bore is "serviceable" (which is a sensible conclusion IMHO) - I will be very interested to see how that sort of thinking applies to the other dimensional questions. 

After all, lots of them have done decades of work just "as they are".  IMHO there is a combination of two things happening there:

Over-built design, good metallurgy, generous but well-thought-out tolerances, low working temperatures and low RPM

That, and all combined with the experience of decades of building and refining the design of these things that lived inside the head of the design engineers who had the benefit of seeing hundreds of these and earlier designs working really hard over years and decades and whose observations influenced the designs in small subtle ways that we probably can't see and that the Indians certainly don't know about

Down here at the Bottom of the World, many hundreds of these machines ran sheep-shearing shed where they would work 12 or 14 hours a day, seven days a week for a couple of months twice a year,  powering the overhead shafts that drove the machines which shore (sheared?) tens of thousands of sheep every year.  Typically installed in the '30s or '40s, many were still working loyally into the '70s and '80s as the cost of getting electricity to remote farm sites was too high to afford

I will be interested to watch a well-documented rebuild of an example of these

Thanks, Mike

broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #74 on: August 03, 2018, 12:36:06 PM »
Thanks Gents.

I haven't made much progress lately. Work is interfering with my play time and I got sucked into another project. I hope to be back on the Lister this fall. I do have a whole pile of parts including a new crankshaft and a couple of original heads that I imported with the last two CS engines.