Author Topic: Introduction/ New project/ Questions  (Read 21257 times)

dieselgman

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2016, 09:06:34 PM »
We should have all of the small parts for your camshaft including the i.p. lobes. gary@dieselgen.com

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broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2017, 07:51:02 AM »
Uh Oh...

« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 08:21:40 PM by broncodriver99 »

broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2017, 07:55:32 AM »
What happened? More to come........


« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 08:25:35 PM by broncodriver99 »

broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2017, 03:12:54 PM »
Well...She is all torn down now.

So, to bring this thread up to speed somewhat. It started when I pulled the cam cover to check the tappet problem. Once I cleaned the cam up I found the cam gear loose on the shaft. Someone had done a poor job of fitting the tapered pin. The pin was too short and had been peened over very poorly with a center punch. The gear is still in good shape but the shaft has some wear to the tapered hole. My plan is to step up to a #7 taper pin and ream the gear and shaft to fit. I found some minor pitting on various parts and decided it best to go ahead and pull the whole thing down. That's when I found the con rod bearing. Every hole for splash oil lubrication was stopped up with some sore of fine dust, moisture, and carbonized oil. It is apparent that the engine had quite a bit of moisture in it over the years. There is some very fine pitting on various surfaces but only a couple of parts look un-usable, though they probably are usable and I am just being picky. I also found a broken oil scraper ring, not sure if it was already broken or weather I broke it during disassembly.

Here is a picture of the piston. Other than the broken oil ring and some scuffing it appears to be in decent shape. The rings move freely although it is covered in carbonized oil and gunk.



Here are a couple of pics of the cylinder bore. There is a little scuffing but I can still vaguely see some cross hatching so hopefully I won't have to do anything but de-glaze it.





Next, is the crankshaft. The cam end has some wear and some scoring. The scoring isn't very deep as I can just barely catch a nail on it but it covers the entire bearing surface. Whatever this engine was driving was being driven from this end. There was a large pulley mounted as far out on the crank as it could get. The other end is in much better shape with minimal signs of abuse. The crank pin is discolored with slight signs of pitting from sitting with moisture in it. It needs a good polish but will hopefully come out useable. I mic'd all of the bearing areas and come up with 1.9970" on the cam end journal, 1.9975" on the drive end journal, and 2.4975" on the crank pin. So, it looks like the babbit material did it's job and took the abuse leaving the crank in decent shape and within usable limits.







Finally, here is the stripped down crankcase. It needs a good soak.



I have had all of the smaller parts soaking in kerosene for a couple of days now. I plan on spending today cleaning them up and mic'ing the cylinder bore and piston to see where things sit for wear and taper. Hopefully a new set of rings is all that will be needed. The water jacket in the cylinder and head has a considerable amount of rust and mineral buildup that needs to be cleaned out. That should be a fun job. Update to come.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 08:33:01 PM by broncodriver99 »

EdDee

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2017, 06:52:24 PM »
Looks very promising indeed!
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broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2017, 12:56:57 AM »
I made a little progress today and answered some questions that I had. I ended up only being able to spend part of the afternoon in a kerosene soaked mess though.  ;D

I wiped down the cylinder and took some measurements front to back and side to side throughout the bore.

Here is what I measured:

The uppermost and bottom most parts of the cylinder where the chrome is untouched by rings read dead on 4.510". Whoever bored and re-chromed this cylinder, I assume Lister judging by the brass tag, did an excellent job.
The upper part of the cylinder, about 2" down, reads 4.512" both front to back and side to side.
The center part of the cylinder reads 4.511" front to back and 4.512" side to side.
The bottom of the cylinder, about 2" up, reads 4.5115 front to back and 4.5125 side to side.

All in all it is worn really even with almost no taper and still close enough to spec that a new set of .010 rings should work just fine. This was a really happy surprise as I was not expecting measurements this good judging by what the rest of it looks like.

I next scrubbed the piston and inspected it and the rings. There appears to be little to no wear on it either but I didn't have a chance to put a mic on it. It is back in the kerosene soak as it was still really gummed up on the inside. I also started polishing the crankshaft journals. I started with 320 grit and moved to 500 grit. There are still a few areas where pitting is evident but thankfully the majority of the scoring polished out. I will work through 1000 and 1200 grits and finish with some crocus cloth if I can find some. I am hoping that will be enough to make sure the edges of any remaining pitting are smooth enough to minimize any bearing damage.

While I didn't get as much accomplished as I had hoped to, what I did get done looks to be promising.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 01:00:18 AM by broncodriver99 »

Quinnf

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2017, 02:25:11 AM »
Ahhh!  Finally, a good pic of a crank pin on a real Lister.  Over the years, a few cranks on Inj'n Listeroids have failed, each one at the pin.  Pics appeared to show that there was no fillet on each side of the pin, leading to concentration of stress.  That one is as it should be.

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LowGear

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2017, 11:07:08 AM »
The rod end looks kinda rough to me.  I'll be interested to see how the first hours go with this engine.

Casey

PS.  I totally admire your focus and ability to bring this engine back to life.
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38ac

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2017, 01:24:30 PM »
Wear down in  in the cylinder is seldom seen, especially  on chromed bores. Wear occurs most at the very top. I have seen many bores that still showed honing crosshatch at the middle an bottom but they would not clean up with a .010 overbore due to wear right at the top of ring travel and a few that wouldn't clean up at 020. You need to measure things right at the top of ring travel just under the ridge. That's what will tell if the bore is usable. Another mistake is to assume the piston is good because it meets spec on diameter. The high wear area is not the skirt but the top ring land.  Lots of engines have been"rebuilt" without paying much attention to the wear limits but if you want it to last as long as it did originally they need to be adhered to.
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broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2017, 01:29:51 PM »
The rod end looks kinda rough to me.  I'll be interested to see how the first hours go with this engine.

Casey

PS.  I totally admire your focus and ability to bring this engine back to life.

Yes, it's not going to win any beauty contests. Some of that is discoloration and oil staining. I am guessing she got really toasty at some point. While not perfect it looks much better after some polishing yesterday. I hope to get back at it today.

I did find some areas where galvanic corrosion had set in. Today will tell the tale though, if it won't polish out off to the machine shop it goes.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 01:37:40 PM by broncodriver99 »

broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2017, 01:34:06 PM »
Wear down in  in the cylinder is seldom seen, especially  on chromed bores. Wear occurs most at the very top. I have seen many bores that still showed honing crosshatch at the middle an bottom but they would not clean up with a .010 overbore due to wear right at the top of ring travel and a few that wouldn't clean up at 020. You need to measure things right at the top of ring travel just under the ridge. That's what will tell if the bore is usable. Another mistake is to assume the piston is good because it meets spec on diameter. The high wear area is not the skirt but the top ring land.  Lots of engines have been"rebuilt" without paying much attention to the wear limits but if you want it to last as long as it did originally they need to be adhered to.

Thanks Butch. I checked that area yesterday and didn't see any variance from the rest of the cylinder. I will recheck it today and hopefully get a mic on the piston.

broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2017, 11:21:57 PM »
Anyone looking for a Lister project?

Thob

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2017, 02:20:56 AM »
Oh yeah, people are interested.  Surely you're not about to give up, are you?
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broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2017, 03:27:21 PM »
Oh yeah, people are interested.  Surely you're not about to give up, are you?

Nah, that was just my sore arms talking.

broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2017, 04:55:36 PM »
So yesterday was a long day. I spent the whole afternoon polishing the crank. My arms and shoulders are still sore. All of the scoring and almost all of the pitting polished out but the areas where galvanic corrosion had set in are just too deep for me to polish out by hand. I mic'd everything when I was done and I had taken .00075" of material off. The corrosion looks to be about another .001" deep. That is good and bad. It looks like it can be polished out and still be within the wear limits but I was hoping not to have to take that much material off.

I had a chance to finish cleaning up the piston and get a mic on it. I found all of the wear I had been expecting when I tore it apart. It was all in the piston. This is a .010" oversize piston and I measured 4.504"/4.503" on the skirt and 4.494"/4.4935" above the top ring. So, that's .006" wear at the bottom and .0165 wear at the top. :o The wear limit is .005" so it is well out of spec. Between the wiped out rod bearing and the loose piston I bet this engine was making some serious noise when it was shut down for the last time. I went through a few of the other parts and found a few more pieces that have enough wear in them to be of concern. The cam being the worst. It is pretty loose in the bushings and is worn enough that it may be time to replace the shaft.

I also rechecked the cylinder at 38ac's suggestion. That is where I did find some good news. I can still see crosshatch all the way up to the ridge. I checked about 20 different places and concentrated on the first inch directly below the ridge and I couldn't find anywhere that varied outside of 4.512".

I have been contemplating my options and these are what I have come up with:

Option #1:
- Have the crank polished until the corrosion is gone and run it if it is still within the wear limits.
- Replace piston and rings with a new .010" set(if I can find one) and deglaze the cylinder.

Option #2:
- Have mains polished and run them if they are within wear limits.
- Have crank pin turned .010"
- Have cylinder honed to a uniform 4.512"
- Replace piston and rings with a new .010" set(if I can find one)

Option #3:
- Have mains welded and ground to "as new" spec.
- Have crank pin turned .010"
- Hone cylinder to a uniform 4.512"
- Replace piston and rings with a new .010" set(if I can find one)

Option #4
- Have mains welded and ground to "as new" spec.
- Have crank pin turned .010"
- Have cylinder sleeved back to std.
- Replace piston and rings with a new std. set.

Option #5
- Replace crankshaft with an aftermarket one.
- Replace cylinder with and aftermarket one.
- Replace piston and rings with a new std. set.

I am thinking somewhere between option #1 and #3. I aim to do this right but it is a question of how far do I need to go for it to be "right". I plan for this engine to be a power source while I build my next place and then serve as a back-up generator. I figure option #1 would buy this engine several thousand hours of service which is likely more hours than I would ever put on it. But, option #2 seems like it is probably the minimum to do it "right". Ultimately option #3 would get this engine as close to "as new" spec as possible while saving the chrome bore and the original English parts which I would prefer.

I won't have any time to work on it for a few days and need to see about tracking down some parts.

So, what do you guys think? Opinions would be appreciated. Which direction would you go?