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Author Topic: Introduction/ New project/ Questions  (Read 21607 times)

Tom

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2016, 02:20:45 AM »
Looks good.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

BruceM

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2016, 06:32:36 AM »
Gorgeous base, Bronco, very nice welding!


Dieselsmoker

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2016, 11:53:36 AM »
Looks really good!

I am now busy figuring out the position of the alternator and cooling tank. I decided to approach the belt tensioning a bit differently:
I will make a swivel base for the alternator - It's a bit more work to make the parts, but at least I won't need to battle with those slots...  ;)
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
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1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2016, 01:06:46 PM »
I have a small update. There hasn't been much progress on the CS project due to a busy summer at work, but I did manage to change the oil last weekend. I have no idea how long the old oil had been in there. The top half of the sump was still liquid but extremely dirty. What came out of the lower part of the sump was closer to liquid asphalt. It was quite a challenge to get in there and scrub out all of the debris. Lets just say it took a good 20 mins of scrubbing with pumice cleaner and a long shower to get all of the carbon laden oil off of my arms. She is full of fresh 30wt now although it started turning dark as I ran the manual priming handle to circulate though the crank bearings and manually turned the engine over. I hope to set up a temporary fuel supply and try to get her to burp soon.

What do you guys recommend for an oil weight? I did a little reading and came up with recommendations for 20wt and 30 wt. I am just running standard 30 wt right now as I figure the oil will get dirty pretty quickly once i get it running and will need another change. Should I be running a diesel specific oil like Rotella or is the straight 30wt ok?

dieselgman

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2016, 03:18:59 PM »
There are mixed opinions about oil technology, old and new. The Lister CS oiling system was designed without much filtration and used a non-detergent oil that would allow contaminants to settle to the bottom of the sump between oil changes and clean-out maintenance. Modern oils are designed to keep everything in suspension and rely of good filtration to keep harmful particles out of your bearings and other wear surfaces. As a practical matter, modern diesel oils are pretty good at what they do. 15-40 is typical for diesel engine service and readily available. Just change your oil frequently and definitely well before you can discern any sludge forming in the engine. 250 hours would be a typical recommendation.

dieselgman
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38ac

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2016, 03:54:53 PM »
Along with what Gary said realize that ANY oil you purchase today is superior in every respect to the best oil available when the CS engine was designed. Old engines that are newly rebuild or cleaned of gunk will run fine with detergent oils however dirty engines can be ruined by changing them over to detergent oils without first cleaning them. Either flush and clean the sump or run non-detergent oil, that's  my recommendation. By the way you won find diesel rated non-detergent motor oil?? what to do?? back to my point A.
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glort

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2016, 06:21:53 AM »
Along with what Gary said realize that ANY oil you purchase today is superior in every respect to the best oil available when the CS engine was designed.

This is exactly what I keep saying in relation to oil discussions( arguments) about the best oil on 4wd forums.
Many of the participants have vehicles the same as mine which are mechanical pumped Diesels at LEAST 20 years old, plenty of them being closer to 25-30.
They get into these great Discussions about which oil is better and nitpick and outright fabricate facts to support their chosen brand and formula.

They get even more upset when I tell them I use the cheapest oil available because it's about 8 grades higher than what the engine was speced for and now has properties beyond what the designers and engineers at the time could have imagined.  Many of these guys would have you believe that the only oil that will let their vintage motors run long enough to get round the block just happens to be the most expensive stuff around.
It doesn't go down well when I point out that the run of the mill stuff in any brand so far exceeds the manufacturers specifications it isn't funny and crashing their vehicles over rock, through mud and dust and plunging hot engines to submersion in water has 100 times more chance of causing wear or problems than the cheaper, way over speced oil they rubbish.

The other point I make is that nothing is better for an engine than keeping it clean with regular oil and filter changes.  The by products of combustion are the detrimental part, not that the oil isn't lubricating sufficiently.
Use any cheap over speced oil and a GOOD quality filter that removes anything that shouldn't be there and change it at half interval and you are far better off than running the most expensive oil to it's recommended Mileage.

I once saw a paper by CAT that I would love to find again that said according to their tests and research, with the quality of modern oils, Change intervals could be extended IF the filters were changed more often.
They said the filters did the cleaning and as they were all by pass types, keeping them clean was more important than changing the oil.
On the great Filter debate where people argue brands and toilet roll types etc, They said that on their current engines, the important thing was to get out particles in the 6-8 Micron size.
Their reasoning was that particles larger than this couldn't get between the critical component clearances to cause abrasion and anything smaller fit between the surfaces and wouldn't bind.
Was very interesting backed up by face and research. I have to look for it again.

Oil is pretty much the same with me with anything.
If the oil I'm putting in the machine is 5x better than what the manufacturer recommended, it's a pretty safe bet the engine is going to last a long happy life on it. Multi grades these days are exactly that and I don't think except for possibly a fraction extra fuel consumption they make any difference in every day non critical engines.  Maybe a Ferrari needs the exact spec oil but your motor mower and other under stressed, built as cheap as possible engines......  Probably run just as happy on Veg oil or liquid lard as long as you changed it regularly

When you are running stuff as old as we are, I don't think oil is critical at all because what they were decades out of the engines on after they were built would probably by out done by the oil we drain out and throw away now.  :0)

That is an excellent Frame work. a real bit of engineering art and a credit to the craftmanship put into it!
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 06:43:25 AM by glort »

broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2016, 10:31:09 PM »
Another little update.

Now that work has slacked off and it has gotten cold I have had time to start working on the Lister again. I had been tinkering as time allowed and noticed an issue with the cam, governor, and fuel pump lifter. The governor linkage wouldn't move and when I pulled the fuel pump lifter I found some issues. I pulled the cam side flywheel in order to inspect the cam and check things out as well as add the fuel shut off eccentric. Here are a couple of pictures of what I found. At some point the roller on the fuel pump lifter seized causing it to wear a flat spot. I have since gotten the roller freed up but it is junk anyway. You can see where something wore into the body of the lifter as well.



Here are a couple of pictures of the cam eccentric and the governor weight follower/actuator. The follower was stuck in the middle of its range and it took some penetrating lube and working it up and down with a hammer to get it freed up.



Here is a picture of the asphalt that has coated everything inside the cam housing.



So, here are my questions for the guys who know these Listers better that I do.

1) Does the fuel pump eccentric on the cam look like it needs to be replaced? It definitely has a shallower profile than the eccentrics for the valve lifters and has somewhat of a flat spot at the top of it's profile. Are all three eccentrics the same or is the fuel pump eccentric different and I am just seeing some superficial wear?

2) How much play should there be between the fingers on the governor weights and the follower? I can't tell if the weights or follower are worn from it being stuck. Does the gap pictured look typical?

3) Is the ball on the end of the governor linkage that rides in the governor weight follower supposed to be a roller? The factory one does not turn(seized?) But the Indian replacement part I have does roll. Which is correct?

Lastly I picked up a couple of free radiators from a buddy of mine that was doing some remodel work on a house. These were the smallest ones in the house. They had some much larger but at 3-400 lbs each I wasn't interested in those. These two together should be capable of dissipating 12-15,000 BTU's according to the numbers I ran.

As always, thanks for any help and guidance.



« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 08:45:52 PM by broncodriver99 »

Hugh Conway

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2016, 01:45:36 AM »
@ Bronco
Nice score with the radiators. I am using one of about 2/3 the number of fins (10) to cool my daily driver listeroid with a 1.5 gallon expansion tank. My runs are usually limited to 2 hours for battery charging. At times the run time is longer, but with a lighter load as I am using it to power tools being used for construction of a new shop. In that case, I apply a constant base load of about 1200W (electric heaters) to keep the engine warm. In either case, the 10 fin radiator seems adequate.
BTW, My sympathies.......... I had to deal with gummy internals like yours when refurbishing a startomatic 6/1......messy in the extreme, but it all turned out well and will be powering my new shop in a few months.
Cheers,
Hugh
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mike90045

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2016, 04:54:56 AM »
What's a good/safe for parts solvent for the internal "tar" 
 ATF
Acetone
diesel/kerosene
gasoline

glort

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2016, 05:22:15 AM »

Naptha.

Don't leave things soaking in it uncovered or it will disappear pretty quick.  A container with a lid is definitely required.

EdDee

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2016, 09:49:18 AM »
Hi Bronco,

1) Does the fuel pump eccentric on the cam look like it needs to be replaced? It definitely has a shallower profile than the eccentrics for the valve lifters and has somewhat of a flat spot at the top of it's profile. Are all three eccentrics the same or is the fuel pump eccentric different and I am just seeing some superficial wear?

Carve down the high ridge carefully till it is level with the worn area - looking at the ridge on the cam, difficult to tell from the pictures, but it looks about 20 to 30 thou or so, polish the running area for the roller, not too much, we are not looking for a mirror, just the roughness out, and the cam should be good for a good few more hours - remember to set your timing!! (Make sure, too, that the roller is fully on the cam surface, not necessarily center, but not overhanging a side - you can adjust this to a small degree with adding or removing gaskets). Also while you are at it - check the oil pump cam follower for damage and smooth it out if required...

2) How much play should there be between the fingers on the governor weights and the follower? I can't tell if the weights or follower are worn from it being stuck. Does the gap pictured look typical?

Its not too bad - make sure that the weights cant jump their slot at fully open or closed, or bind as well, ant you should be good to go.

3) Is the ball on the end of the governor linkage that rides in the governor weight follower supposed to be a roller? The factory one does not turn(seized?) But the Indian replacement part I have does roll. Which is correct?

It should be a ball shaped roller - make sure that the engine stop lever doesn't close to the extent that it limits with high force on the linkages or on the fuel rack - there is an immense amount of leverage and resultant force that can be put on that little roller if the engine stop lever is lifter with force - This could cause the little ball roller to seize, particularly if the engine is cranked over after standing a few days with the lever "forcefully closed"

Hope this helps...

Regds
Ed
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dieselgman

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2016, 01:47:14 AM »
Very messy interior there... we have seen a few extreme cases where the lube oil was gelled and impervious to most common solvents. I know that gasoline will do a good flush job for the worst of it unless it is gelled. Then we found that xylene was required to dissolve and remove the crud. There are plenty of issues - health and safety - related to use of any of these solvents. You don't want to ingest them either through the skin or through the air/lungs, and you don't want to have a fire or explosion hazard in your workshop. We have generally taken the worst of the cleanup projects of this sort outside the shop during the dangerous phases of getting them cleared out of the goop.

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

dieselspanner

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2016, 08:36:19 AM »
Hi All

I went down the 38ac route and boiled the bloody lot, crankcase and all, for 2 hours in a 40 gallon barrel, with 5 kilo's of caustic soda, over an open fire. The paint, crud, grit and everything else pressure washes off a treat.

Do it on a bit of waste ground 'cos it takes 9 months for the weeds to grow back and the other half to forget about it all when you kick it over to drag the crankcase out - obviously I learned the other way!

Cheers Stef
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broncodriver99

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Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2016, 05:15:50 PM »
Thanks for the responses guys. I have a lye solution I can use for the smaller stuff and I have found that kerosene does a good job at cutting most oil based crud so will have that as well.

So, from the responses so far it seems the only real casualty is the fuel pump lifter. I have an Indian replacement already, just needed to check some measurements. The body of the Indian replacement is a little shorter but I guess the difference can be taken up with the adjustment bolt. I will probably just file down the eccentric on the cam as suggested. Anyone know where I can get just the eccentric without having to buy the whole cam? I would like to at least make a comparison.

Thanks Again.