Castings and parts available for "build your own" Listeroid? Is it legal??

[dkmc]

Hi Folks,
Haven't  been on here in a long time, mostly due to depression from EPA ban on importing the engines.
I am wondering about the availability of castings and other more complicated? parts like camshafts, cranks, and injector
pumps.
In addition to a fairly complete line up of machine tools, I recently acquired a Horizontal Boring Mill, and I think it will
give me the capability to machine the larger size castings associated with these engines.

My NEXT question is, is it legal to import the castings and parts, and build/ assemble,  and operate these engines in the USA?

Thanks for any insite and info, and please let me know if you might need machining services on your engine parts.

[dieselgman]

The practical answer would go something like this: It is still legal to import the parts and pieces as long as it cannot be described as an "engine". It would be illegal for any business to assemble, advertise, or sell domestically any completed new production engine not meeting the current emission regulations and bearing the official government registration placard. The prescribed penalties are severe and enforcement actions have shut down businesses. Exceptions would be any military, export, or emergency homeland security use...   As far as practical matters go, an individual who chose to do so would also be in violation of certain provisions of the regulation but would not be exposed to any reporting or scrutiny unless they installed the thing in some publicly exposed locale. There are still ambiguous and nonsensical portions of the law that could be interpreted or applied in various ways depending on the character of the bureaucrat in charge. In my opinion, the law as it currently exists oversteps the bounds of common sense and does nothing to improve our environmental protection in the case of these particular hobby engines.

[38ac]

 The short answer is not legal but think about it this way. The guy out West claims to be building new improved Listeroid engines  every day and shipping them all over the country and he has yet to be taken away by a black helicopters flown by agents of the EPA,,

 although I do wonder if he hasn't been a passenger on a UFO,  

 
 
 

[dkmc]

My question is why would you even care?  Clearly your EPA is a gubbermint entity gone nuts and far overstepped sensible agendas and policy's so why would you be worried about obeying laws which are patently idiotic?

Hopefully the posts after yours make it more clear why I would care?
Ignoring the law however idiotic, does not seem like a smart thing to do.
I don't need a fine or worse. No telling what this Giovt. might do.
Feel free to take risks as you see fit.

Others: Thank you for the insight.
I'm aware of the compressor people, and that seems pretty risky.

Next questions.
Do any sort of engineering drawings exist that are available for these engines?
It may not be the easy way to get an engine, but just the thought of doing the machining myself to try it one time
intrigues me. Most of the complete engines have to be disassembled and cleaned or maybe machined to correct mistakes
anyway, so why not do it from scratch and do it right the first time?

[dieselgman]

We have the entire historical microfilm archive of the Lister engineering drawings... however, these are lacking in indexing and organization at present and will be a challenge to assess as to completeness and viability. Lister/Petter has encompassed at least several dozens of different engine lines over the years and most of those have not remained absolutely static in their production/manufacturing details.

I would think that you would also find yourself in violation of some of the regulations with any home-built engine that was not vetted and approved by the EPA. I have not (recently) reviewed the currently allowed exemptions except for military use, for export only and for certain emergency situations related to homeland security. Perhaps others would be interested in commenting on this area.

dieselgman

[mcreeferson]

I have to say I played with this idea a bit myself. Not so much because of the legal aspect as for the adventure of it. Depending on time, and how my current project goes, I may still go after it, just with a bit of a twist. Now that I already have an 18/1 in the works, the only way to go is up! Maybe a 36/2, or a 72/4? I'm already laying out a "Boxteroid" in my head, but whether or not it ever makes it to metal only time will tell.

When I was looking at doing what you are talking about, I was thinking more along the lines of building it up from raw steel. If you have the machinery (which it sounds like you do), the ability, and the time, skip the garbage Indian castings altogether, and do it right. The problem I had, was sourcing the plans (note to self, become really good friends with the g-man  ). Without those, or an engine to work from, it was a no-go.

I don't think you honestly need to worry about picking up a parts kit and throwing one of these together for a home generator. If you try sneaking them into production on next year's VW line-up you may grab some attention, but a dude in his garage isn't even on the radar.

If your primary objective is to stay off the radar (though I doubt you really have anything to worry about), whether you buy a "full set" of parts, a compressor to convert, or just a set of castings to build from, it's all the same as far as risk. It wouldn't take a Sherlock Holmes to crack that case. The only way to stay off the radar, if you really felt you needed to, would be to build from scratch, or very near to it.

Now, if your primary objective is the cool factor and adventure of doing it yourself, you should be going full on from scratch anyway, AND, you should be taking lots of pictures to share, because if that's what you're about, I like your style, and want to see what you make!

[38ac]

OK sorry for my attempt at tongue in cheek humor. As far as I know It is not legal to build or sell a new engine that does not meet current emissions standards. That would seem to be straight forward but there are many  hairs to cut. Define "build" define "new", think about it. Another thing to think about.  Every engine magazine advertises build your own replica kits of about any old engine imaginable?  My senses tell me that either it is legal to replicate an old engine to play around with or the EPA doesn't care.  I will guaranty you one thing, if you ask the EPA, the answer will be no.  

Almost every week I get a phone call or email from someone wanting advise on this subject and I have developed a standard line. Yes, complete engines are still being imported into this country by individuals but here is the chance you take. IF your shipment happens to be the one that gets stopped you will be out your investment, plus will be fined, plus you pay to have it destroyed and disposed of. Has any individual engine been stopped? Not to my knowledge.   To my knowledge there has never been a case of the EPA going after an individual engine owner. To my knowledge there has not been a case of the EPA trying to decipher if a INDIVIDUAL completed engine is pre ban or post ban ONCE IT HAS CLEARED CUSTOMS.  Be careful in reading what I just typed and be certain you read all the words and notice that some are capitalized to stress them.

Parts kits however are totally legal to import and own. What to do with a pile of parts? read above once more.

Would I take an engine kit to the front steps of the EPA building and put a sign on my back that said looky at me ! I am assembling an engine from parts, come and get me? Heck no. Would I assemble an engine from parts in my shop? I think that has been documented. Nuuten more to say about it.

[George A]

Hang on a second........let's compare this to building a firearm for your own use. If you aren't aware of it, you can legally build any firearm for your own use as long as it is not an automatic weapon (machine gun) and meets the minimum federal requirements for barrel length. Not talking about purchasing any factory parts either. You don't even have to serialize it...no numbers. Now, if you SELL it that's an entirely different matter and the ATF considers you "in the business" (their exact words).

Alright, now lets look at building an engine. You obtain parts from various sources and assemble a working engine for your own use, not for retail sale. Do you honestly think that squadrons of black helicopters are going to swoop down and haul you off to an interment center, never to be seen by your family again? No. The government (EPA) is simply putting a stop to the importation of COMPLETE engines by a retailer. They could care less about a single individual and his "putt putt". In other words, this is not 1930's Germany.......so far.

Assembling a Listeroid is no different than making your own castings, machining your own parts and assembling a device for you own use. Stop worrying about it and order what you need.

[EdDee]

Lucky buggers...in my part of the world it is strictly prohibited  to manufacture any sort of firearm..... but I can buy a Lister!

[veggie]

If you scratch build for personal "off road" (stationary) use and do not sell them as a business I believe it's totally legal.
The EPA is concerned with manufacturers and mass distribution.
So the "Maker" revolution that is currently underway would lend itself to this.
Draft up drawings in 3D CAD. Place them on the web as "Open Source", and watch the hobbyists go to work ! 

veggie

[cujet]

If you scratch build for personal "off road" (stationary) use and do not sell them as a business I believe it's totally legal. The EPA is concerned with manufacturers and mass distribution. veggie

I agree!

I post on the US Constitution's so called "Commerce Clause" and it's powers and limitations on the aviation forums regularly. As the FAA derives it's authority under the 1926 Air Commerce Act. (For example, passenger and freight airlines are engaged in interstate commerce)

Let's start with the actual text of the Constitution:

“to regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes.”

Under Constitutional authority, it's a normal function to regulate "interstate commerce". It's a stretch to regulate a product under the "commerce clause", however..... Quite simply, the products regulated are sold in every state.

The "regulate commerce...among the several states" has no power over private entities/private property who/ are not engaged in commerce. For many years, the EPA derived it's authority in much the same way as the FAA. By Federally regulating automotive emissions limits/manufacturing/mpg/safety under the "commerce clause". However, the EPA did not, until recently, make it illegal for a private individual to disable an emission control. That was ALWAYS a state regulation. A few years back, a minor EPA wording change introduced a unconstitutional, private, non commercial restriction.

As far as I know, it has not been challenged. And if challenged, it's anybody's guess what the outcome would be. The argument being that emissions can cross state boundaries.  

Even so, United States citizens are not federally forbidden from constructing privately owned, non commercial, smoke spewing machinery (as of my last EPA CFR's review) . State regulations are another matter.

[cujet]

 double tap

[dkmc]

The fun thing about any forum is the ease with which one can ignore the silliness

There certainly is a varied range of personalities replying to this.
Even some with common sense and pertenant information!
(You people are whom I am seeking answers from, and thank you).

I would like to mention that no where in my first post do you find the word SELL.
Some of you smarter types picked up on that straight away.
Interesting that deselman has some sort of engineering drawings.  

For the drama inducers, I'm not really considering letting these details of legality
dictate my choices for any hobby involvement, I really am interested in any word
of parts or engines being confiscated or held in customs (and stories thereof).
IE Has it happened? More than once?

Thank you!
 

[dieselgman]

I know of one enforcement action (clearly documented) that happened with a generator business in Puerto Rico (US Possession also subject to EPA regulation), and another shipment that came through Houston and was abandoned due to threat of EPA/customs seizure. Both cases involved business entities rather than individual persons and that does indeed appear to be the focus of the law as it stands. Yes, parts can come into the US legally... just pay for all the fees and inspections and what not. Just do not try to sell any completed engines and you should never have any issues with the law. It is also a bit tricky now in the repair business because provisions of the same law make it illegal to do a complete remanufacture or full overhaul (beyond 50% of cylinder replacement) on any non-compliant engine type. I was told that Caterpillar and John Deere dealers were actively destroying their old engine cores at one point as a result... probably others as well. So what can you legally do with a single-cylinder non-compliant engine once it is worn out??? It is pretty clear that the law is written in such a way as to completely remove the old iron from operating service, period.

I will be organizing and reviewing the engineering blueprints and microfilm archive we recently acquired, when time allows... this will not be a quick process nor easy to summarize at this time. It is also very far from being any sort of priority for us. I do not know how far back these go but they appear to be at least back into the 1950's so we are hopeful that we will also have coverage of at least some of the CS parts. Because we have some unblemished original machines, I would think that the process of building new parts matching the originals should at least be possible. Financial viability? - Not likely, but a fun adventure none-the-less.

I have had my own personal history with bureaucrats and power plays unrelated to the engine business and that has left me quite cynical about ever dealing with the government beyond what is absolutely necessary.

[dkmc]

Interesting......and also depressing.
Maybe some day the EPA cops will take to raiding old engine shows and writing tickets on the spot.
 
I sure hope I'm wrong!
 

More questions if you will humor me.
So, if a guy (business) was to use the Listeroid platform as a basis for a CHP system that ran on Nat Gas,
that 'seems' doable and legal?
What if the engine is compression ignition and uses diesel to ignite the NG?
What if the engine is converted to spark ignition?