Author Topic: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications  (Read 165868 times)

BruceM

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #885 on: January 19, 2019, 02:22:24 AM »
There are other ISO standards for PLC logic languages, too, as I saw references to them when briefly looking at a few of the top PLC manufacturer's product portfolios to see where they were at these days. 

Here they are:

IEC 61131-3 standard

IEC 1131-3 is the international standard for programmable controller programming languages. The following is a list of programming languages specified by this standard:

    Ladder diagram (LD)
    Sequential Function Charts (SFC)
    Function Block Diagram (FBD)
    Structured Text (ST)
    Instruction List (IL)

One of the primary benefits of the standard is that it allows multiple languages to be used within the same programmable controller. This allows the program developer to select the language best suited to each particular task.
Ladder Logic

Ladder logic is the main programming method used for PLC's. As mentioned before, ladder logic has been developed to mimic relay logic. The decision to use the relay logic diagrams was a strategic one. By selecting ladder logic as the main programming method, the amount of retraining needed for engineers and trades people was greatly reduced.

The first PLC was programmed with a technique that was based on relay logic wiring schematics. This eliminated the need to teach the electricians, technicians and engineers how to program - so this programming method has stuck and it is the most common technique for programming in today's PLC.
Mnemonic Instruction

There are other methods to program PLCs. One of the earliest techniques involved mnemonic instructions. These instructions can be derived directly from the ladder logic diagrams and entered into the PLC through a simple programming terminal.
Sequential Function Charts (SFC)

SFC have been developed to accommodate the programming of more advanced systems. These are similar to flowcharts, but much more powerful. This method is much different from flowcharts because it does not have to follow a single path through the flowchart.
Structured Text (ST)

Programming has been developed as a more modern programming language. It is quite similar to languages such as BASIC and Pascal.

Structured Text (ST) is a high level textual language that is a Pascal like language. It is very flexible and intuitive for writing control algorithms.
Function Block Diagram (FBD)

FBD is another graphical programming language. The main concept is the data flow that start from inputs and passes in block(s) and generate the output.


If some of the big PLC co.s support Red Node as a standard maybe it will go somewhere.  It looks more involved with IOT and communications, and might have some nice tools for collecting and displaying data.  The structured text language (ala Pascal) looks like a good method for old programmers...I expect that's what Ed used.




« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 02:48:59 AM by BruceM »

saba

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #886 on: January 19, 2019, 04:09:59 AM »
Hello bruce, I will read it and have a look at it. I like this stuff so I like some new input. Come back to you later.
Bernhard

saba

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #887 on: January 19, 2019, 09:50:21 AM »
Hey Bruce it was a bit late when I read your message. By the looks of it I think in the siemens s7 we have the function block diagram. There are codes and blocks with conections that don't seem to go anywhere. Now that I see your message I think I should have a look at it. I could really steel the show if I have some knowledge of it.

Node red is not a language to put in a plc, at least as far as I know, I think you can talk to it with modbus or OBD and and do a lot more with your plc.
Quick look on youtube, www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV78MQks6BI, just scroll past the install stuff and you can get an idea what you can do.

Greetings Bernhard

BruceM

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #888 on: January 19, 2019, 05:14:14 PM »
What will be needed for Node Red compatibility with various PLC systems will be interface support from the PLC manufacturers.  The video is pure fluff but I'm sure it's worth every penny you pay for it. ;)  The graphical display of data might be useful, as ED demonstrated very nicely with his system. I think he was using the same open source graphical display software.

Huge amounts of OPS (other peoples software), but perhaps viable if well supported with a large following.  Good luck.

My needs are much simpler.  When I need to transfer data to a remote terminal I just do it myself, via opto isolated current loop on twisted pair (CAT5 typically) or fiber optics. Using the global BLIS standard (Bruce likes it Simple).  I try to keep it as simple as possible as I must maintain it, as will someone else after I'm gone.

I've even retired my two remote fiber optic terminals to my battery bank controller (BBC);  I did a simple analog only version pf the BBC for my neighbor's system... in his house he has an analog panel meter to show battery voltage (120VDC nominal) and a second analog panel meter to show either net charge or load currents. (Two twisted pairs from the BBC for those analog signals.)  No processor at all, no software.  He loves it and says it gives him all he needs. (Our systems are designed for low DOD operation so knowing estimated SOC is not of much use.)  I switched over to the new all analog BBC board myself this last summer.  I'll add the processor module for automatic operation of the inverter and well pump and a new electric compressed air pump for surplus power use this summer...but I will make it removable with full "manual reversion" capability.  I used that strategy for my Listeroid Controller; in case of any failure of the engine controller or related remote start and monitoring hardware, you still have a normal manual Listeroid.  I even applied it for my AVR design...flip a switch and I'm back to harmonic only regulation. 














ajaffa1

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #889 on: January 19, 2019, 09:43:34 PM »
Hi Bruce, love your keep it simple approach. Fancy programming and Plc controllers are just another thing to go wrong. The ability to manually override these systems are vital in any truly reliable system.

When I fitted the AVR to my ST5 head I fitted a new bridge rectifier at the same time, this isn`t connected to anything but would only take me a couple of minutes to rewire for harmonic regulation. How did you wire the switch to swap from AVR to harmonic? Sounds like a very worthwhile modification and one I should have thought of. I am also looking to build in a small rechargeable battery, in the event of an AVR failure I would then be able to switch back to harmonic excitation and flash the field winding by pushing a button.

Bob

BruceM

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #890 on: January 20, 2019, 01:38:46 AM »
My AVR is custom but switching the typical China AVR in and out to retain direct harmonic operation is a good idea if the harmonic is useable as-is or with a modest amount of resistance added (not with the current crop at CGG).

One pole could disconnect the field coil, another the sensed 115/230 V, and another the + Diode bridge.  I think this would work.  So a 3PDT or 4PDT pole switch of modest amps could do it with the push of a button.



ajaffa1

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #891 on: January 20, 2019, 02:39:19 AM »
Thanks Bruce I`ll try to do up a drawing tonight and post it, I think Oldseagullman is also trying to make modifications to his ST head.

Bob

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #892 on: January 26, 2019, 09:00:28 AM »
Hi Guys,

Been "offline" for almost 2 weeks - the organ grinder went to tea and a semi trained monkey who was left to mind the shop (read that as our local telecoms provider) pulled some wires out through sheer boredom or whatever... The result was no ADSL and a good few "mildly persuasive calls" to them to get them to check the exchange DSLAM ports and links... After numerous "the problem is on your modem" type remarks from the various "support" staff over there....well enough said...here's hoping some asshole doesn't go foraging for copper amongst my connections for a while....

A short post again... I skimmed through the previous posts and have but a few comments...

PLC - Hardware is reliable, O/S software is stable, timing, instructions and power consumption is well documented and of an industrial nature - Power consumption of this unit, driving 6 or so 40A contactor coils, is in the region of 10 to 15W - Idle draw is around 6 to 8w, a small price to pay for a reliable piece of kit. (that amounts to about 250ma on a 24Vdc battery bank, less efficiencies of course)

As to reliability and maintenance, while I love the simple liister/oids, these units would outlast a lister by a factor of 10000's at the very least - Granted, they are sensitive to power spikes a la lightning and major ESD, but in their defence, they are rugged little creatures that take little to no maintenance once set up. Like the lister, feed it clean energy, it will last longer...Way longer than the lister...

Bruce, I programmed this thing in Ladder, from start to finish, the display is an industrial HMI (human-machine interface)... The HMI has its own little bit of software to program it and get it talking to the PLC. the HMI is a touch sensitive screen, semi ruggedized for industrial app and quite simple to set up. Mostly menu driven, this old one still needs XP to run the programming software. The HMI links to the PLC via serial port, reading and interrogating the PLC register values for display, able to manipulate the registers for control..

Right, sir Glort, more of a description as to what this box of trix can do...especially since you got me thinking about it in the first place...

There are but 3 things that this toy now monitors - Battery voltage, Time, Available Light... Its amazing what can be done with these three little simple things, let's do a "for instance" in real world things to get the idea across, forgive me if I have done this earlier in the thread and I repeat myself...

Picture the scene: A lovely little garden path with cute decorative lights to pretty it up for the ladies...

Now the technical bit: The lights must only come on if there is enough "free power" reserve in the batteries, after 5pm for a couple of hours and only when it is dark..... So you set the power availability via a voltage choice - slightly above to slightly below the float value for your battery bank, set the timer for start at 17h00, set duration for 120min, and finally enable it for low light only... Walk away and it does its thing.....

Right, a guest has arrived...I will carry on with this saga a bit later....

<Back Again>
 
The saga continues...So much for it being a "short" post.... If my BS and rambling irritates, you, the reader....Ade....Kick me off the site!!

Now onto some more of the nuts, bolts and bit bashing that the PLC does... It does the roughly the same things for both charger inputs and power outlets from the battery/inverter.

The outputs have parameters that you can set up (5 outputs, each individually parameter'd)... This effectively allows for a pretty complex set of circumstances when run individually, or even capable of being series'd to allow multiple turn on/off times and controls to be set... Obviously, 2 outputs, series'd means that from a 5 output total device you will lose an individual output as it will be combined with another...

The mains battery charger output can be battery voltage controlled as well... A start voltage can be set, as well as a cutoff voltage for when charging must stop... This is particularly handy when a load is imposed on the batteries that cannot be unloaded when there is a lack of sunlight or wind... A typical example is my scary candy floss machine (fuge), that once started, is a PITA to stop halfway through a batch of processing, the mains charger kicks in and holds the batteries at just above a critical damage level until I am good and ready to turn off the peripheral devices and put everything to sleep. Of course, it is a good idea to have the auto switch-in that bring in the automatic loads(pretty lights etc) set at a cut-in battery voltage that is somewhat above the cut-out voltage for the charging... I wouldn't do to run this box of tricks as a gloried UPS now, or would it??? ...!...

All switched loads/charging parameters have a couple of individual "time factors" associated with them (even the daylight sensor)... This allows for the surface charge/drain on the plates to be catered for. For instance, if there is not a cutoff period associated, the contactors cycle when the charge voltage is a fairly narrow one, the charger or load drives or drains the batteries into the cutoff range, the contactor opens and the + or - load unloads... The cells then "spring" up or down in voltage slightly, causing the voltage monitoring to see the demand, the contactor closes, the voltage goes out of the required range and the cycling starts again... Add a custom shutdown/startup timer to precede or follow the band and it, at the very least, gives a minimum presettable on or off time for the circuit in question. Do a bit of cute watching and examination (read that as a smoke break and a pint) in front of the box, extend the timers as needed, and the charger, for instance, with a bit of shutdown delay, puts enough juice into the batteries to allow the circuit to shut down and not cycle on and off too much as it approaches target voltage (hysteresis looping 101).... but again I ramble....

As for the daylight sensor.... Well, a simple answer/example is: What if the sensor is placed in a walkway? Only a preset amount of time in shadow or light will allow it to start switching things, a typical use for this could be 10minutes after sunset, start doing something... Or an hour after sunrise, get things moving...

Now, why go to all this trouble and to-do for a silly little 1Kw wind/solar setup... Hmm... good question.... Honest answer... To see if it could be done!! And....Ultimately... to hook this silly little system into my 5kw household system so that I can get a bit of night time wind to charge the works... As well as rerouting a few "luxury" type appliance circuits from the DB board so that I don't have to have the proverbial cadenza when residents try and run dishwasher+ironing press+2xmicrowaves+aircon(and dont forget the clothes dryer and hair dryer at the same time) off the solar simultaneously... The box also has current measuring capabilities which I can easily implement (all written in and tested, just add current sensor) and then I can let it be the "bad guy" and turn off the loads until more power becomes available... Who me? Naaah.... Couldn't be.... I would never put a facility like that into play.... But come to think of it, isn't that a great idea...Lets keep it like this and see how it works out....

To put it in a nutshell, if that's at all possible, each connector to the outside world has individual settings for:

Start voltage + Start  up delay timer
Stop Voltage + Shut off delay timer
Day Sense + Start delay timer
Night sense + Stop delay timer
RTC turn on + Duration on
Automatic one button timer (press button and the corresponding output is active for its own presettable time)
Forced on mode (Manual on, controlled by PLC and will only turn off when batteries go below critical level)
Forced off mode (All automatic control disabled, only forced on is available)
Overcurrent monitoring on the global output and shutoff in the event of limit being reached
Selections to allow Light monitoring or to ignore
Selection to allow Dark monitoring or to ignore
Selection to incorporate time monitoring or to ignore

Add to that a global time monitoring control and a global light monitoring control alongside a "panic button" to kill all outputs immediately as well....... I think I have most bases covered... Oh, Bob, if it does give sh!t...easy....Its' all plugged in with M/F kettle connectors, unplug the mess, plug the connectors together and climb on the light switches to try and run it manually!

Keep it switching....

Cheers...
Ed...

P.S....due to about 30 interruptions whilst trying to post this, the author makes apologies for possible repetitions, typo's and garbled trains of thought and comment....
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 05:46:01 PM by EdDee »
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ajaffa1

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #893 on: January 26, 2019, 11:40:32 PM »
Hi Ed, sorry to hear you have had internet access issues. We had the same thing between Christmas and new year. Phoned the telecom company and got put in a long que to talk to an operator. while waiting to talk to someone, a recorded message informed me that I was number 37 in the que and that my call was important to them but I might want to call back later when they were less busy. Alternatively I could log onto their website to report a fault!  >:(

Fitted a lot of PLCs in production systems over the years, never learned the black art of programming them. This was always done by outside contractors. If things went wrong or we needed to make changes to any processes we had to get the contractors back in. We then had a brainwave and ran a heap of cat 5 cabling and gave the programmers dial in access. Worked like a charm until we had a very serious electrical storm which blew up a heap of PLCs. Cost the management a fortune in new parts, programming and lost production.

Keep it simple stupid, fitters cost a lot less than PLCs and programmers.

Bob

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #894 on: January 27, 2019, 06:51:54 AM »
Hey Bob...

But if you were given the plc for buggerall, if you knew how to program it, if you knew how to design the circuitry to support it, if you had all the bits and contactors in the scrap pile, if you had a system to hook it to, if you stuck it all together and it worked, if you offer your last couple of months part time work, programming, knowledge and playing to the community for free, if just one person read the outcomes of the experimentation and the depth of control that is available, and if that one person simply found it entertaining, not even useful, then I have achieved what I set out to do...

Keep it spinning...
Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
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Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
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BruceM

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #895 on: January 27, 2019, 03:25:56 PM »
The real time clock (RTC) and integrated display/touchpad features of your PLC give it a lot of utility and save you from a lot of programming hassle, and the fully integrated power supply and relay outputs also make it just the ticket for you application.  I think it's a very well done project and in the entire history of industrial engineering, no one ever got fired for choosing a PLC for just this sort of application.  Some did get canned for schedule delays and bugs, cobbling a less elegant solution, such as an Arduino, RTC, touch screen LCD, and relays, some input conditioning hardware and a power supply.  I did just check and yes, it all is available but the input conditioning, and probably that too.  The PLC puts all that plus the  PLC language(s) software in a single well integrated and tested engineered product; which is why no one got fired. :)

Nothing wrong with either approach for a hobby application. Long term support is why the PLC wins for industrial applications.



 


EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #896 on: January 27, 2019, 08:23:05 PM »
Hey Bruce...

D'ya know of anybody on the forum that has used a cheap industrial PLC to monitor/control a Lister(oid) yet - Was just thinking...A dangerous thing for me to do...I usually get so deep into the "thinks of it" trap that I end up in the "just do it" box...

After all, a "Start-o-Matic" is pretty much the hard-wired Eniac of plc control for a thumper....

Had a quick search on fleabay and came up with this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/LG-Glofa-LS-Programmable-Logic-Controller-G7M-DR40U-IN1053-G1T/263804114080?epid=17021269258&hash=item3d6bf354a0:g:tREAAOSw60NbQpJ3

At about USD200, its not too exy for you rich guys....

I have one already and am teaching my middle youngster to do a bit of programming on it... It has more than enough ins and outs to probably run a Lister with full environmental monitoring and "shatdown" control if oil pressure/temp/output overload/whatever runs awry... Nice thing about these units is that the stuff is written in ladder/plus the other two (guess which I prefer), and the software loader/compiler is freely downloadable - Granted, it does use an rs232 interface, but they do seem to work quite well with the usb-rs232 adapters available nowadays, plus, for a change, even though it is of the older style software, it runs on win10 as well....

Just thinking.... Start-o's and the like run on a 24v battery start system...these new fangly plc things are available in 24v models as well...

Dammit...

(Loud echo of imbecile slamming head in wardrobe door...several times....then muffled screams as same imbecile proceeds to place fingers in preheated ironing press to prevent obsessive compulsive software authoring for another few days....)

Cheers\
            | - Typed with elbow as hands are wrapped in bandages dripping with burn salve....
Ed       /
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
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Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
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BruceM

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #897 on: January 27, 2019, 09:41:25 PM »
I would think many of the PLC's would do a fine job of either SOM electronics replacement or as an add on to create a remote/auto start Lister(oid).  I'll bet you could sell the code, you might get 3 customers in 2 years! :)

I did it with a Picaxe 40x chip with loads of spare I/O. All my output signals were low side mosfets, so only a gate resistor plus logic level gate mosfet for each output channel.

There are some 4 channel n-channel mosfet boards for Arduino now.

I forgot to mention- Bravo for teaching a youngster to program a PLC.  That's a skill that pays well and is easily transferred to other hardware.  I think that's the best way to teach programming-  code that physically makes things work is very rewarding.






« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 12:39:31 AM by BruceM »

ajaffa1

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #898 on: January 27, 2019, 11:11:42 PM »
Hi Ed, there are a lot off ifs in your reply but I think you have persuaded me. The if that got my attention was "if you can get it for bugger all". I just happen to know an electrician with a container full of old PLCs and associated equipment. I`ll make some inquires about what he has got. Who says you can`t teach an old dog new tricks!  :laugh:

Bob

glort

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #899 on: January 28, 2019, 12:27:51 AM »

Always amused how the most interesting posts by the smart people are apologised for as being rants or too long when they have the best info of all.  :laugh:

I have often thought about what it would take to replicate a startomatic. If they could do it the old mechanical way 50+ years ago, surely it could not be hard with modern electronic controllers. Should be able to  add a lot of improvements and fail safes as well.

Looking forward to seeing the formula Ed comes up with for us to copy.    :laugh:

With a bit of modification should be able to be used for other engunes and applications likr pumps etc.