Author Topic: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications  (Read 289453 times)

vdubnut62

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #690 on: October 15, 2018, 10:09:26 PM »
And now i feel like a Neanderthal. Again.
Ron.
"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."   Plato.

"Remember, every time a child is responsibly introduced to the best tools for the protection of freedoms, a liberal weeps for the safety of a criminal." Anonymous

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #691 on: October 15, 2018, 10:35:05 PM »
Hey Ron...

Why u feel stone-age?

Believe it or not, my basic opinion of things electronic is that they are disposable, short lived, fragile and pretty much equate to mental masturbation as far as setting up goes... Great fun to play with, instant gratification when u get it going, will you remember it as a milestone in your life in 1, 2 or 3 years time...probably not!

But...

Grab a hunk of steel, a load of bricks or even a good sized lump of wood... Spend a week or more making something from it, or hell, even 5 minutes, and there will almost definitely be some part of your skills left sometimes for generations to come!

And that cute thingy with all the flashing lights and wires....that will disappear in a puff of logic at the next lightning strike!

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed
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EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #692 on: October 15, 2018, 11:02:15 PM »
I just noticed something.....

Those numbers next to this thread.... Views in particular.... Replies as well.... Are they correct? Almost 150k views of my/our BS .... Daaaaamn....

To all the infinitely tolerant moderators and admins out there, thanks for a great forum!

To all the rest of the lesser mortals who participate in the friendly banter, thanks for tolerating all my BS and being such good mates to an even lesser mortal such as myself!

Each and every one of you guys make it all worthwhile! Even old Glort, with his brash, Aussie "up yours" attitude, Dave, I hope one day to meet you face to face and shake you by the hand.


Here's to another 150k views, and another 850 replies!

Cheers
Ed
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dieselspanner

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #693 on: October 16, 2018, 07:38:38 AM »
+1 from me!

I know it's a 'Lister forum' but 'Man cannot live by bread alone'

Actually that probably explains the continuing development of the Runcible spoon.

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #694 on: October 19, 2018, 03:20:16 PM »
Hi Guys,

While of the subject of just about everything else except Lister(oids)....

I had a chance to run up the 'fuge today for a good couple of hours worth of testing!

Running around 13000 RPM, about 5500g's, 250W worth of incoming power, 1L processed in 5 to 8 minutes, product was badly contaminated with water and dust commercial diesel...... All done in a single pass, no multipass pump fitted yet....

I could not process the incoming stock at a faster rate due to the "pump effect" of the unit drawing in air, thanks to my clever stupid idea of having a open sight hole in the incoming line to visually check the incoming flow rate. Bloody clever, works well to see how fast the crap is running in, but draws enough air through it to disturb the layers in the bowl and cause sediments to mix and slip over the lip..... What a twat!

A brief description of the in and out -

Feedstock is a milky white/brown oily mess...no lumps or chunks, but certainly not something I would even clean the outside of a Lister with. The mix has been standing for 6 months in a shaded area to try and settle out water to no avail. Little to no water was evident when draining the 25L containers. It is well and truly emulsified and holding the water in suspension.

The tailings remaining after going through the fuge, contain brown slime, clay like sediment and what appears to be water. There is approximately 500ml of tailings per 10 to 15L of feedstock processed, slightly more evident in the lower reaches of the container, so it was settling, but very, very slowly. These tailings are largely incombustible, extremely difficult to light off, and major crap left after you do manage to get a weak flame for a few minutes....

Overview: The unit runs very well, considering its a single pass system, separating pretty much all of the crap out of the diesel I tested it on.... Well, you tell me.... Here is a 1000 words or so for you to judge for yourself!! The 5L container on the left contains the single processed batch, the bottle on the right is some of the tailings drawn from the bowl between runs.

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
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EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #695 on: October 19, 2018, 10:10:58 PM »
Hey guys...

Managed to mount the feed tank this eve on the fuge... At least it's not swinging in the breeze from the gantry now... It's a repurposed 'disposi-can'that I got some refrigerant in a while back...

A bit of an update re the separation of the previous load of shite I was testing with..... Ran some finished product through the fuge for a leak test after mounting the tank and redoing the bowl outlets... About the same feed rate but slightly slower, pretty much the same RPM... On checking the bowl after about a 10 minute run and pulling about 750ml of re-reprocessed output, all is clean, it looks like 5500g is a pretty good starting point for sending the sump gunk through...Who knows, I might even get away with a single pass on that stuff too....Bugger....now I've jinxed it.... no way its gonna work!

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed

PS... Bruce... I think you asked me to report back re the wind gennie performance... Well, today it worked for a change... Around sunset, the wind came up with more than a stiff breeze, just as the 250w panel lost its balls... For about 2 hours, I was charging the 24V inverter shtf system with between 10 and 12 amps... Had a steady draw of about 240W on the vfd for the fudge, a couple of 40w neons going, and the wind kept it all up and running....
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BruceM

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #696 on: October 20, 2018, 12:16:41 AM »
Good that your wind power is working well.  Wind power can work very well in some locations.  It was very popular for off grid homes here until PV prices went so low.  In the winter, we used to have big storms blow through (typically 3 days), and the loss of PV was made up for with a few days of steady day and night wind production.

That weather pattern has changed, and PV power now dominates.

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #697 on: October 20, 2018, 08:39:09 AM »
Hey Glort,

Thanks for the compliment!

I am doubtful that there will be any significant water content in the post process product, that being said, it would be worthwhile to check again. The m0st accurate way I have found to determine content is by heating and noting the rate of temperature change ... For instance, apply heat, watch temp climb... at around 50-60c it slows down as alcohols boil off...temp climbs again steadily...at 80 - 85c, petrol boils off and the curve flattens again... once done, it marches on to about 98c, where things become interesting as water boils off...it then climbs fairly steadily to about 120-130c with some small dips in rate, nothing significant....and so it pretty much ends for me. I don't have a drill that can be closely monitored at mid-high temperatures...yet!

Wind power on this site is pretty much a dead loss...yes, there are a few good days, but 90% of the time its less than 10% output...which makes it around 50W...A total waste of time so far...but...its only been up a couple of months, lets see if it is more prevalent in one season than another...

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
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EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #698 on: October 21, 2018, 10:26:45 PM »
Hey Glort and all!

Played round with the scfm again today, interesting things indeed...

Remade the spindle from a bit of what I think is EN8 bar stock...tough as nails, a bitch to machine cleanly, and a bastard to tap threads in... Reason: the previous spindle was made up from some free cutting steel I had laying around, it was a 'concept' mock up to test with... it served its purpose but started to run out of true around to 10 000 rpm mark and caused a bit of vibration... The new shaft with the old bowl runs nicely up till around the 18 or 19000 rpm mark, but then the bearings start to complain a bit and I have to back it down to about 17500 to 18000 rpm area to keep things reasonably happy... The bottom spindle bearing is the bugbear, I remember dropping it whilst I was assembling it... it might have dimpled the raceway...

I ran some gunk through the beast, 2 x 5l cans of wmo individually... the first was from a petrol engine service, the second was from a diesel engine oil change.

Markedly different behaviors and markedly different results... The petrol wmo, after 3 passes, thinned with 500ml of diesel after the first pass, ended up slightly darker than honey, kind of like when you do an oil change on the car, nip it round the block to test drive it, get home and check the oil...that sort of colour, not new, but just recently changed... The diesel wmo after 3 passes, also thinned with about 500ml or maybe a bit more, remained very dark, but not a 'dirty' dark as in stained skin black, but considerably darker than the petrol wmo. Of interest too, was the tailings left after each run. The petrol tailings were easy to clean and more oily/greasy than the diesel. The diesel, was almost rubbery,sticky, latexy, perished rubber band type snot that needed more scraping than wiping to remove....

It seems like the limiting factor on the rpm is going to be the wallet, last check, the ultra high rpm bearings were quite exy!

Tomorrows plan.... put some covers over the pulleys and belts, then rev the cr@p out of it properly and see if I can trash it! .... Any bets as to the frag rpm of a cast and machined Ali bowl, 10mm wall thickness and 95mm od?

Lets find out!

Keep it spinning...REALLY FAST!

Cheers
Ed

PS... scfm=scary candy floss machine!
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
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Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
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EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #699 on: October 22, 2018, 09:54:51 PM »
Hey Glort...

Juice is around the ZAR15 give or take a bit, per litre...

Re the scfm, I didn't get a chance to nuke the bowl today, instead I put a sealed sight glass on the inlet to visually check without having an air vent incoming... That of course required testing, so I spun the water out of a couple of litres of hydraulic oil... That went really well... Running the beast at about 18k rpm made me a tad nervous, not for the bowl and spindle side of things, but for the drive pulley side... it's a very lightweight spoked ali pulley about 250mm, maybe a bit more, in diameter... This evil little shredder is motoring at about 3000rpm, which is about 10x more than it was designed to do, originally, on the drum of a washing machine... Now, picture the scene... 3000rpm of very flimsy Ali pulley whipping a 13mm belt around a 40 something mm spindle...all this is happening about 30mm horizontally above a nice sturdy 8mm thick steel plate welding table.... All at the perfect height to skewer the wedding tackle if something lets go en masse....

Needless to say, I got tired of placing said tackle on the far side of the vise and stretching over to adjust flow rates and the like... So I pulled digit out of rear orifice, got my waterfowl linear, and made some overlapping covers to enable a lower valium intake for the coming tests.... Now the damn thing resonates like a boom box... Gonna have to glue some foam to the insides of the outside to deaden the noise...

I did get a chance to run some well used, fully synthetic, high dollar oil through the beast to see it I could spin out the crap... Well, it's still dark, but... there's a whole shitload of crud in the bowl.... it does clean the heavy stuff and water out, but the fine carbons in suspension... a bit... but not all... which is kinda what I expected anyway...

Tomorrow, before I destruct the beast, I am going to run a 5L batch of petrol WMO through it a few times to see what it can really do... Should be quite interesting to see what it takes, and what the results are...

Keep it spinning...Fastly

Cheers
Ed

Ps...Waterfowl linearity....get the ducks in a row!
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 09:58:08 PM by EdDee »
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veggie

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #700 on: October 25, 2018, 03:02:25 PM »

Interesting project Ed,

I may have missed it earlier, ... what diameter bowl are you spinning at 17,500 rpm ?

veggie
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EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #701 on: October 26, 2018, 09:42:54 AM »
Hi V,

The cup is 95OD, 75ID by about 70/80/90 or so high... I am now running it up to around 22/23000rpm for the more "interesting" tests...

As per usual fuge principles, the time spent by the medium in the cup has way more influence than slight changes in rpm... I have noticed that at double the flow, even doubling the rpm's doesn't provide similar output quality... I need to make a somewhat higher cup (and a bit bigger diameter to facilitate easier cleaning)...but that's the next on the project list... I think a double height cup would be a beaut, giving just about the right amount of additional time for the media to settle out really nicely...

Petrol engine WMO spinning at a low flow(about 5 to 6min per L) provides a pretty much re-usable lube output...well, re-usable to burn that is, and good enough to re-deploy in the sump if you're out... Spinning waterlogged milky diesel fuel at around 13K rpm gives a dry, better than store bought(estimated) clear and fully serviceable fuel output...

What is interesting though, is even with the spinning, removing water, removing sludge, removing dust and heavy metals from the WMO, the needle valve on my test burner (The one hooked up to the hot water system) still clogs up with very fine, invisible to the naked eye when in solution, what seems to be carbon dust... This burner is a touchy bastard, the feed pump is a very low pressure centrifugal one, and shows up interesting things that would be missed on a higher pressure, positive displacement unit....

I think what I should do, is finish servicing TM1 and run some of this cleaned gunk through him on a regular basis...That will surely pick up the viability aspects... IP elements are the first to suffer when there are abrasives in the fuel....

Enough rambling...

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
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veggie

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #702 on: October 26, 2018, 02:29:41 PM »


Well.... according to your bowl size, by my calculations you are creating approx 22,291 G's of force at 22000 rpm.
That's impressive.
As you stated, retention time and flow rate are critical to a good cleaning.
It would be interesting to see what happens with 2 or 3 passes through the unit.

I wonder if that debris on your burner tip is Ash rather than carbon.? Petroleum oils do have an Ash component when burned.

Nice job !

cheers !
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EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #703 on: October 26, 2018, 11:16:19 PM »
Hi V,

The "dust"I pick up is in the needle valve that regulates flow to the burner, the flow control is well removed from the flame area... I am using a babbington type burner that I cobbled up out of some surplus bits... an old brass cupboard door handle, some water fittings, a bit of hydraulic pipe offcut, a few bsp water fittings and pipes, as well as two "disposi-can"type tanks for fueling... How's that for up-cycling!

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
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Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
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EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #704 on: November 06, 2018, 08:50:14 AM »
Hey Girls....

Been playing around quite a bit on the up-cycled projects...Here's a brief summary...

I removed all restrictions and flow control on the babbington burner the other day and replaced it with a direct feed from a header tank that is at about 2.4m height. In the fuel feed line to the burner, I installed a small "bleed" valve to remove any airlocks when starting. The fuel pump is now a "scavenge" pump, it empties the bottom tank into the header tank and any bypass fuel from the burner gets lifted to the top tank as it becomes available. The mixture control is now done by varying the ball depth of the babbington in the stream of oil flowing onto it, as well as the air pressure being adjustable from the air fedd of the from the compressor. The air pressure doesn't make a big difference above a certain point, this pressure point varies according to fuel temperature, mostly, and only seems to influence the level of atomisation of the fuel. Thicker fuels require higher pressures to atomize, the converse applies to thinner fuels. Once a sufficient level of atomisation is achieved, a pressure increase does little more than increase the heat output somewhat, but that is not required in this installation. There is more than enough heat to achieve objective even at lower pressures.

With the removal of the flow control needle valve, gradual blocking seems to be largely a thing of the past, the unit runs semi unattended and relatively trouble free for an hour or two at a time. There are the odd flameouts now and then, but this is mostly due to wind gusts I reckon, the poor bugger is not in the most sheltered area... Startup is a bit twitchy, requiring a richer setting to get the goods flowing, and then one or two leaning out settings as things come up to temperature, all within about 15mins of startup...

As far a the "scrap-o-fuge" is going, he's mostly completed with only a slightly (double) bigger bowl left to cast and machine up... I have now up-cycled an old 70W dishwasher/washing machine/scrap water pump and assigned it to pumping out the catch tank with an option to hook that line into the feed tank, to allow for multiple pass processing of product. It looks like the current most "rewarding" rpm to run at, where things happen relatively quietly with the fuge not sounding like a turbine ready to jet off the premises, is around the 80hz mark at about 15k or so rpm... That equates to around 10 000g or so... Little additional reward seems to be evident running it faster at this stage....(but then again, the rules change with every batch of WMO I process... The only rule that really seems to come into play, is that...Things WILL change!)

I have found an ideal use for the blow gennie with the implementation of the scrap-o-fuge... With only about 350W draw, the blow gennie supports him for pretty much the entire afternoon and well into the early evening...

Right....Enough rambling...as usual, any interesting thoughts from you ladies to add to the pot?

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed (Stalking off into the sunset to go do a Tim Curry impersonation of Rocky Horror.....)
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!