Author Topic: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications  (Read 289452 times)

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #615 on: July 20, 2018, 08:50:25 AM »
Hey Glort,

The 2 small panels are kind of "experimental" units, they will be used for playing and one to be used to hook up to the little blow gennie as it has a 24v solar input... I might use this little unit to power a linear motor or two and do the trimming on the panels, depending on what I find to be the laziest way to do things...

Roof mounting is about the only way to go for me, with the miscreant thievery and other wild animals (as well as regular yard "target practice") they wouldn't last long at ground level...

Regarding yield, I simply work to the theory that the most oblique angle to the sun, the better... 10 deg off ideal doesn't seem to make a big difference practically, but it does add up... I am glad to see that the panels have almost a non-reflective type appearance, bouncing little off at sunrise and sunset...

Watch out for steering too much light and heat particularly onto your panels via reflection, I think it would be detrimental, but not sure... one of the lads in the know can probably give us a bit of insight... I have often thought to myself that a basic parabolic reflector made of thin ali either side of the panel good give a good bit of extra morn/eve yield... These thoughts came about after cladding the flattish roofs of 3x dormer windows with 1mm polished ali to reflect the heat.... did the work during the height of summer, around midday, wearing but a T-shirt and short pants.... Well, I was in agony for the next week due to an overcooked sausage and potatoes.... Hilariously funny for the family but not for me!

Enough rambling....

Keep it shining...

Cheers
Ed
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BruceM

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #616 on: July 20, 2018, 03:52:34 PM »
Thanks for mentioning PV Watts, Glort.  Interesting web site.

Many schemes of adding reflectors to increase PV output were done back when PV was so expensive.  The heat does lower voltage, but still it will increase total output.  The cost and maintenance of the reflector is the bugger.
I don't recall the use of a white (good reflection but diffusing) surface for PV.  It does work fine for flat plate solar hot water collectors.

I've thought about adding a reflector to my solar hot water panel, to increase gain in winter, but my backup gas bill ($15/mo. for 3 months)  is so low I can't justify the cost.  The wind here in spring and our notorious "dust devils" (mini tornadoes) make large lightweight surfaces problematic.

I think using PV as an added shade, privacy fence, or other architectural feature is a great idea and will no doubt be much more common in the future.  Home/roof design to optimize the local peak power season gain seems also likely. 

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #617 on: July 23, 2018, 09:10:56 AM »
Hey Guys....

Managed to install the solar inverter and hook it to household circuits, as well as get it in the same line as the little auto start genset we have...

Didn't come out too badly, and found a nook that, while it is "exposed" to day to day operations, is out of the way and readily accessible as well, just outside the back door under the back porch and protected from the elements too....

Explanations:

1st pic: That's the inverter with the incoming mains/outgoing 220/solar panel isolator box above it.

2nd:Grey box with black lid is a manual changeover switch to isolate the gensets, the orange box is the auto changeover to switch to genset when the genset comes online, it has an auto current limiting feature that switches back to utility should the load on the genset be more than 16A for 30 seconds. Below the orange boxes are an incoming plug point from utility, a plug point from TM1 and one from TM2. Currently TM1 is disconnected and TM2 is feeding the auto switch over when he gets started.

3rd: Overall view (Starting to get a bit cramped...) with a peek in the mid left of the pic showing location of pic4. (In the lower RHS, you can see the top of the upper battery tray, there is another tray below it.)

4th:1st plug point is incoming power from db board, well after TM1/2's circuit, this feeds power to the small auto start genset. 2nd plug point is from the little auto start gennie. 3rd plug point is from the inverter/solar setup... The units are daisy-chained here so any unit can be manually removed from the chain, the black plug in the third plug point is a return to main the db board in the house... this input feeds critical circuits like lights, security system, dvr etc....

Daaaaamn... I better write a manual for the house, I don't think I will remember it all in a year or two!

Cheers
Ed

PS: Yes Glort, the pictures are crappy quality.... But the Canon was lying on the dining room table and it would have taken a whole 30 seconds to fetch it.... way quicker than typing this PS out come to think of it....
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 09:31:21 AM by EdDee »
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cujet

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #618 on: July 26, 2018, 01:05:06 AM »
I'm simply here to say, this is an epic thread!

I've been enjoying the very wordy and very interesting posts.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 01:07:33 AM by cujet »
People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #619 on: July 26, 2018, 08:29:06 AM »
Awww.....Cujet.... A fan!!

I just want to give you a big hug!!

Love you long time!

Cheers
Ed
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EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #620 on: July 31, 2018, 11:38:55 AM »
Hey Glort....

U don't count.... U are as close in mannerisms and outlook that I rate you as family..... Sorry to drop your gene pool by the drastic amount I have, by including myself into your bloodline.....

They say a picture is worth 1000 words... So here you go Glort, a post to rival your own!

The solar install is just about complete to the point of "next upgrade", the only job left to do is to raise the last bank of panels to the correct angle, which can only be done after I lift the blow gennie another 3m by extending its mast... The guy wires at the current height get in the way of the panel bank....

These pics are of frames lying folded down then erected on the roof of the workshop...

Nuff sed....

Cheers
Ed
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EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #621 on: July 31, 2018, 11:42:39 AM »
Another 3000 Words in pictures....

Panels in place, connected up and starting to duct pixies through the little pipes in single file....

(The frames/struts are made of 304 stainless, Tigged together where needed, all support bolts are stainless too..)

Enough rambling...

Cheers
Ed
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38ac

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #622 on: July 31, 2018, 01:03:32 PM »
Another 3000 Words in pictures....



Enough rambling...

Cheers
Ed

By the time I got 3000 legible words typed earth would be past solar and on to matter/anti matter power generation, pictures are great!  LOL
Ramble on please. I dont post on this thread but the read is first rate!
Butch
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #623 on: July 31, 2018, 01:07:51 PM »
Hey Glort....

Sheeeesh.....Me as a family member and you reckon it would improve your gene pool...... Daaaaamn Boy!..... You must have a low regard for your bloodline!! (Most of mine disowned me!!)

Panel lifting wasn't bad, there are only 12 and its barely 3m up.... I knelt on the roof and my housemate passed them up to me... They're only about 30kg each...I think... Went nice and quick, we had to pull finger to do it before the midday breeze came up, that's what I was worried about....

Once the racking is up, the panels are a doddle... Just time consuming to bolt them in, but a small battery drill wif a 10mm socket does wonders...

I still have my concerns about the panel mountings, albeit they are quite substantial... The rear of the panels face a downward slope which is very wind prone - Lets see what the next gale does!!

Currently I only have a DC breaker at the inverter, I will need to upgrade it as it is only about 20 to 25A, no matter for the moment, good enough, but when I wire more load to the inverter I will need to replace it... I must have a scratch round, I might have a decently capable 80 to 100A industrial switch which will do the job....

Thanks for the compliments!!

Appreciated!!

Cheers
Ed

PS - Arrange the flight and I'll be there to lend a hand for sure!! (I was thinking of visiting a mate in NZ - But he's moved onto a little blow boat.... A bit cramped for him and I don't want to stress him out!!)
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EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #624 on: July 31, 2018, 04:06:36 PM »
Hey Glort...

The panels are in 4 banks of 3 panels each, these banks are in parallel so a max of around 40 to 50 amps will be evident at best season... Hence the need to upgrade the panel trips.... The panels are rated 335W at around 30V, so I guess, more accurately, the current will be around 11.5A per bank x4 = 46A....

Circuit breakers I am not really worried about, I am sure I will scrounge up a few serviceables, hopefully not too ugly so they don't make the breakout box look too crappy.....

DC is funny stuff... I was playing with it on the weekend..... I like it much more than AC... I grabbed hold of the panel buss bars a few times whilst they were idling at around 95V and didn't even feel a tickle - try that with AC and you will be flat on your back... I am quite lucky in that since an early age, my skin (on my hands anyway) has been quite dry, so my skin resistance is quite high... Up to about 100VAC I can touch and get a close guess as to voltage flowing, above that I steer clear... DC I can guestimate to about 130V with no discomfort.... Not to be tried with wet hands while lounging in the wet bar I must add......

On circuit breakers, as long as they have a good, quick, reliable, repeatable and widish points opening, they are more likely to last on DC... The slower the gaps open, the more arc, the quicker they burn out with use.... The main reason for "series-ing" the contacts, is, if they start to burn closed, there is another one in the string to break the circuit. There is no advantage in individual small gaps, as the plasma in the arc forms pretty much a 0 ohm resistance when it presents itself, the gaps are not cumulative to any large degree, but, a single large gap of 6 times the individual smaller gaps as is present on a standard breaker would require something like 40x the energy to sustain the arc..... Easy way round it is simply to wire up the circuit breaker and dangle it in a container of dry oil, its amazing how much more can be switched with puny little contacts and a bit of cooling and plasma reduction.....

Enough BS Rambling from me....

Cheers
Ed
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BruceM

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #625 on: July 31, 2018, 05:14:11 PM »
I also like working with DC..and find the discomfort about 1/4 that of AC for any given voltage.  I got a good hit of 140VDC a couple days ago- I was rewiring some power distribution for an inverter jury rig test, switched of the breaker and forgot about the capacitors in a big facility filter used for my house power. (No bleed resistor, intentionally, for an off grid battery power situation.) Not really painful but reminded me that I'd screwed up and had forgotten to discharge the line!

I'd like to take exception with the notion that multiple gaps make no difference in arc extinguishing.  Cascading contacts are often employed for high voltage and current, DC rated breakers. There is more going on that just more chances to not have contacts welded shut. (Although that would certainly help for on time only.)  Midnight Solar makes DC rated breakers that I use regularly. The  300V version is just two 150V breakers in series...which makes me confident that total arc length does matter. Both the 150 and the 300V DC rated breakers are also rated for use as a switch, meaning rated for decent contact life with many, many openings.  I haven't found a comprehensive engineering primer on the physics of DC breakers, but if you've seen one that makes you think multiple gaps are not doing what I think they are, let me know, please.  Permanent magnets are commonly employed on higher power/voltage DC switches and relays to bend the arc to lengthen it's path, which I find intriguing.

There are DIN rail type DC rated breakers here in the US, with 150 and 300V ratings. They are cheap, so I use those instead of going to the work of testing AC rated breakers.  If I couldn't get DC breakers I'd have to get serious about testing at above intended voltage to make sure, or have some reliable data from someone else's testing.  I fried a $200 collection of six different heavy duty AC only rated switches on 120VDC one afternoon, switching a 4 amp load of lamps.  Same load, Leviton rotary lamp type replacement switch, no trouble at all. 

I am seeing more higher voltage (125V) DC rated switches at Digikey now, just got a small toggle switch for capacitor discharge for my inverter install for a few bucks.  DC is starting it's comeback.













EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #627 on: August 01, 2018, 10:25:41 AM »
Hi Guys,

I stand corrected for my incomplete posting regarding multi gaps for DC.... Here is my experience and a little of my own home brewed "folk lore" to clarify....

AC breakers generally have a fairly weak return spring on the lower voltage, lower current stuff, the 110 to 380V, 5 to 80A, in particular..... The intermittent arc caused by AC has natural 0 point crossings where the arc falls away and the plasma stops/slows in forming.... This allows for a slower opening contact to be effective and breaking the arc/plasma gap...

Once a plasma bridge has been formed, it can sustain fairly easily on DC, much more so than on AC. Glort's playing around, mine too, for example creating a mini arc at 30V DC with a 10A panel is a fair example.... This is quite difficult to sustain to the same gap with an AC supply...

If you use an AC breaker for switching Highish current DC, albeit at a reduced voltage, in general I have found to get a decent life from the device, a rating of between 2 to 4 times the current capacity is required in the contact area side of things. Lets face it, 20A is 20A, the actual carrying capacity of the device is not affected,  DC or AC. The difference in life is caused by the switching time... If you use a slowly opening set of contacts that allow an arc to draw on DC, the life is diminished drastically. Multiple contacts opening simultaneously on a slowly activating device will help to a small degree, but not a dramatic one (my experience here) .... A somewhat more "beefier" contactor, with a faster opening time, makes a huge difference in longevity. Whilst the contact and conductor sectional areas are well above what is required for the carrying of the load, they are not what is of consequence... The opening time and opening gap is....

But hey, feel free to agree or disagree, I am simply relating what I have found and what has worked for me... (With my own twisted logic involved to explain it.... Lol...)

Incidentally, I was forced into using an AC contactor that was only just within rating for carrying current capacity some years back on a DC panel...(Size restraint, availability and budget...don't ask).... My solution was quite "different".... Stripped the contactor down, pulled out the return spring and put in one that was so hard that the contactor could only just pull in on the coil.... Opened much faster and way less arcing after that.... Downside: it buzzed a bit when held in, but not too badly....

Multiple gaps will improve matters slightly, as will compressed air blown between the contacts during opening, or even oil bath contacts. Another easy and simple way is to put a capacitor across the contact to reduce the opening arc, a la points and condenser...

Regarding opening gaps - the "sustainability" of an arc in free air, is (if I remember correctly) roughly inversely proportional to the square of the distance the arc has to travel.... (Way out of my comfort zone her, so I might be talking crap)... If I understand this correctly, founded on my "zero-based stochastic estimate", in a 6 contact arc break of 1mm travel, we end up with a factor of  (1/(1^2))/6 =  1/6..... A single pair of contacts opening 6mm would give us a factor of 1/(6^2) = 1/36 likelihood of sustaining an arc.... Granted, probably mostly BS and a lot of rambling.... but hey, hasn't failed me yet!

Regarding DC dangers and my BS relating to it.... AC lets you know from a much lower starting voltage that bad shit is about to happen from a discomfort POV due to the oscillating cycle and nervous reaction thereto... because DC doesn't have the oscillating effect on the nerves, much less discomfort is felt initially. When skin resistance meets its match in the DC arena, muscular spasm causing one to grab hold tightly onto the exposed conductor, thereby lowering resistance still further and the "solid" contraction on the muscles involved....well, I don't think we need go much further, especially if the body forming the bridge has the current flowing across the chest area.... There is one vital organ that needs intermittent nervous stimulation to keep pumping.... block that stimulation out with more than about 30ma and suddenly it all goes dark...

The most likely injuries to be found, I would think, in DC engineering would be of a "burn" nature... Most of the "WTF was I doing" instances come from lower voltage, high current short circuits - the wedding ring that cauterizes a finger, the metal watch strap that forms a neat bridge on the DC buss, the bling chain making a neck worn gold fuse, the 10mm spanner that forms a wonderful high current fuse while held in the palm of your hand, or, maybe even, that bit of gaseous copper that coats your safety glasses (we all wear them right?) after snipping off that last sticky-outy-piece which homes like a guided missile towards and between the buss bars yet again.... Simple, easily occurring injuries that could easily be avoided...

Regarding the arcing, or lack thereof when disconnecting or connecting parallel banks: Easy to understand - For an arc or spark to form, there must be enough voltage differential across the gap to initiate it. The current alone would not be sufficient at the levels we are concerned with... When a parallel bank is disconnected from the array, yes, the buss voltage does drop slightly, but not to 0. A typical voltage drop would be in the region of a few volts, probably less than 5. The free panel voltage would rise a few volts, but probably not too much either. The nett voltage across the contact would probably be less than 10v... Lower voltage, less arc, littler bang! .... Again my (il)logical explanation that keeps me going....

Glort, are you crazy? 300V of DC into a Hydrogen generator!! Hydrogen will kill you! So will 300V! The world is going to end!! Let me get my will organized! When are you going to do it so I can turn on my seismic monitoring plant? Have you let NASA know what you are doing so they can reschedule their launch windows?.... .... ... ... . . . Uhhhh.....Nope! Have fun and let me know how it goes!! Are you doing separation of H2 or simply generating Browne's gas?

Ah well.... Enough rambling and BS (from me anyway)....  Those in the know, please comment, correct, and set me straight!

Keep it shining....

Cheers
Ed
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ajaffa1

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #628 on: August 01, 2018, 11:21:14 AM »
Hey Glort, if you are playing with Browns gas be careful, I did some experimenting ten years back and managed to blow the windows out of my garage despite having the doors open, lost some hair and both eyebrows couldn`t hear for several hours. Best to separate the hydrogen and vent the oxygen to atmosphere. Failing that you can significantly reduce the explosive nature of the beast by diluting it with regular air before compressing it for later use.

Bob

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #629 on: August 01, 2018, 03:11:39 PM »
Hey Glort....

About the only lasting injury that messed me around happened while working on a tractor front end .... I had split it and wheeled the back end away, was doing the clutch.... Another joker had to do the lights on the front end, and without my knowledge, he hooked up the battery.... All was well until I reached up onto the tappet cover while leaning on the ring gear and had some metal tool fall squarely across the starter motor solenoid terminals.... dragged the end of my right thumb through the loose bendix/ring gear.... All of a sudden having part of an extremity turned to minced sausage meat certainly brings new and unique vocabulary to an audible level.... I think I carried on for about an hour....WITHOUT repeating myself....

A band aid, piece of splint and a couple of weeks of discomfort and all was well eventually... I did go to the doctor initially, but he mentioned words like "Lets just trim off the ragged bits, they'll never heal into anything useful anyway....".... A long story short, I told him to go forth and multiply, wrapped my hand up and set sail.... Still have a whole right thumb that is 100% serviceable these days, just a bit bigger than the left!! (being slightly bigger it seems to attract hammer blows more frequently..)

Cheers
Ed
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