Author Topic: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications  (Read 133021 times)

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #690 on: May 10, 2018, 08:15:32 AM »
Hey Glort,

Was running WI until the last stroke... He seized due to a oil pump problem and wasnt the same compression wise after the unceremonious levering with a crow bar to get him moving again... Compression was a "bit down" and he started to roll coal through incomplete combustion - no amount of WI could keep him alive after that and he just gradually carboned up and got too difficult to start, even with an electric starter - too much blow by....

I am gonna take him back to standard rings/sleeve config, then play with the worn stuff and rebuild them if I can... will be interesting I think... I have done teflon/ptfe piston guide buttons before, also in 2 strokes, removes a lot of side clatter but did wear after a while, they were hot runners on methanol/nitro mix - scary power and revs from 125 size machines... The scariest was a 50cc Yamahaha engine we got up to about 20k rpm... a real screamer!!

TM2 is on DemonD - recyclyed and reclaimed from previously water contaminated, going well and used in a  backup power roll....

Get those wheels spinning properly! Once you get them off I can give you a few hints to get the beast running smoother than ever, at various rpm - well worth it too  - It seems a daunting task, but I have found, once done, its almost easier to pop the wheels off before moving the machine in fact!

Keep it spinning,

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #691 on: May 10, 2018, 02:19:26 PM »
Hey Guys,

Right...so went to play with the toys and took the head apart, the exhaust seating valve seating was a bit crappy/leaky... Interesting!

The exhaust valve itself is not in bad shape, a bit of stem wear, but nothing too serious. The seat on the other hand, is BAD! (With a capital F!!)

The seat is crazed and pitted, way beyond what I would call usable (Bear in mind, usable to me is a pretty lenient term!) I have just called up a local bunch and asked them for a quote to cut out and reseat it, will find out in a few minutes...

The inlet on the other hand, is perfect, hardly any wear, little to no evidence of any nasties at all... I think, that the goop TM1 has been running on probably has not only a solid residue in the form of fine abrasive when burnt, but might also be somewhat acidic in nature once gone boom... The exhaust seat has bad corrosion and is starting to back into the head, around one mm in fact...

A year or 2 back, TM1 had a similar problem before... I simply put TM2's head on and kept going, subsequently, the original head was refurbished and installed on TM2, no problems since... but... then again, he only runs intermittently on DemonD anyway... It seems as if the CI on both the heads I have is not particularly strong and fine....very large grained and high in carbon to boot... Also, one must remember, the by-products of the goopfuel are pretty nasty, so a bit of leeway is in order...

Ah, the local boys have just called with a quote... ZAR470 to cut out and replace the seat... a bit steep I think, but hey, someone has borrowed my seat cutter and they haven't returned it yet (and I cant remember who it was anyway), so stuffit, contract it out!!

Right.... Still haven't gotten round to pulling the cyl off yet...I am almost tempted to redo the head and slap it back on for a bit of a trial run to see if he will start and run for a while... There is not much that can be stuffed up further than it is, barring the bottom end which is at a greater risk standing open than closed up anyway....(An oil/filter/fuel filter change and flush wouldn't be a bad idea too..)

In the meantime, I think I will go over the injector and pump, setup the timing and check the IP lobe... There might be a bit of a problem there, but hey, all good fun! Plenty to tinker with!! (Not to mention the leak in the radiator which is going to be a real PITA to get to!)

Lets see what the whims and fancies lead me to.....

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

dieselspanner

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #692 on: May 10, 2018, 09:00:54 PM »
Sat here listing to the Toy Dolls and reading stuff like this, whilst putting away the last of the Captain Morgans makes me wish the fingernails I'm chewing had more of a diesel flavour................

Cheers Ed

Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #693 on: May 16, 2018, 11:58:05 AM »
Hey Guys....

Some more musings and ramblings from "Darkest Afrique".....

Anybody not interested in non-Lister, choose another channel.... Well maybe not, I might be able to squeeze in the "L-Word" somewhere I suppose....

Parts ordered (Sleeve/Piston/Rings/Head Gasket), exhaust valve seat cut out and new fitted, I now sit back, licking my wallet-wounds and when my strength returns, I will assemble the head and wait for the rest of the parts....but.......meantime.......In a land far, far away, not as far as "Down Under" I'll admit, but far, far away (Compared to the rest of the civilized world anyway), there once was an old chap, young at heart, who decided to put waste crud to good use.... (Old engine oil, specifically...).... He has had a reasonable amount of success, some interesting things, and, to boot, a lot of fun doing it, but I digress...

Ultimately, I have found out that having a fuel filter fail on a waste oil powered engine, leads to interesting and very speedy wear on any part that is in contact with said waste fuel, whether it be sliding or slipping or rotating in a coating of this unholy gunk! What I initially thought was residual damage from an earlier seize (Lets not get too deep into this again!) seems to be of a somewhat different nature. There is no galling or scraping or metal deposit type damage evident, but what is evident, is wear.... Lots of it!! All of this excessive wear seems to be located in the upper regions of the old chap - Valve stems, particularly exhaust valve, cylinder - particularly the upper section in the combustion area, injector - tip mainly, polished/recalibrated and salvaged, injector pump - element quite badly worn, particularly the lower section of stroke, IP non-return valve - seat and plunger showing abrasive wear, injector pipe - fine solids, black/brown/dark and of almost "talcum powder" grain size found while rinsing out, fuel line 1(Diesel reserve tank) - nice and clean, little, if any nasties found, Fuel line 2(Day tank, recycled goop) .... well, lets just say that I will toss it away, too much crap in tow.... Everything is pointing at my super duper disposable element, bought off the "specialists", 1 micron filter having failed and let through some good old sandy shite.....

Time to change the plan of attack, and go back to a way earlier idea for the beast involved.... (that's besides tossing out the POS filter system and going back to a regular diesel filter)

Some long while back, in the internet time scale of things (Pre dinosaur relatively speaking.), I endeavored to still some oil using the exhaust gas energy  - not really successful, because while there was enough "energy" to get the whole thing almost working, the energy was too widely dispersed by the exhaust gas and not concentrated enough to be of worthwhile use for the task... I subsequently, after a bit of dallying about, made up an independent "oil still" and very successfully stilled off a good bit of fuel... About 100L or thereabouts if I remember correctly, but don't quote me on this...  It was a fair return too... about 75 to 85% recovery, sometimes a bit less, sometimes a bit more depending on what goop got fed into the reactor/boiler chamber... the 15 to 25% or so overhead was from running the burner, as the burner was fueled from the same waste stock as the boiler feed...

While dallying about over the past recent while, I have slowly been collecting bitso shitso to put together a more reliable, easier to operate, and hopefully safer method of stilling the fuel from the gunk... A good few "improvements" have been made to the mechanism - The only original parts of the old still that have been retained are the boiler/reactor tank, heat shroud and burner - I will "upgrade" the burner a little to give a bit better consumption and operation, heat from it is way more than enough, even as it now stands....

One of the most "concerning" features of the original still was an open to air "float" bowl to maintain a constant level... This was prone to flash combustion as the feed stock warmed up, and, depending on the volatility of the stock (lighter petroleum concentration) there was a risk of the bowl flaming and requiring extinguishing... not difficult, not particularly dangerous either if caught soon enough, but far from ideal, as it could possibly develop quite a blaze and most definitely would be able to burn off fuel feed hoses et al, leading to a way more serious situation than I would want....

I hopefully, have now (still to test), managed to make up an enclosed float bowl capable of ingesting and metering pretty much any liquid that I feed it. It is made from an old self emptying water trap that was used on a steam line, with inverting it and changing the flow direction, adding a few pipes and a bit of "dark art" engineering (The blood sacrifice to the gods of levers, cogs and pipes when I nicked the side of my hand on a #36 belt on the belt grinder...), I think I might be on the way to a semi unattended type of processor...

If it pans out, I think there will be the small addition of a belted compressor and tank added to TM1(to run the burner).... So TM1 will be consuming sump gunk(main task), making hot water(main product), making electricity(secondary product), making compressed air(Burner running), generating distillate fuel oil(always handy to have a bit extra around as well as running himself on it)....and....above all... Having fun!!

Keep it Spinning/Cooking/Pumping/Heating....

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

glort

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #694 on: May 16, 2018, 01:48:01 PM »

Interesting read as always Ed.

Was your Fuel filter failure in the processing or engine Side?  One thing I have used since about Month 1 of my 15year oil adventures is a household 10" water filter for oil processing. I get either 1 or % Um micron elements, whatever the hardware has at the time and circulate all my oil through that.
The oil is always pre settled or at worst, pre filtered through some fabric of some type. Usually thats a felt material I bought some rolls of dirt cheap years ago. I tend now to put all my oil through that when pouring into the drum for the just collected oil which is then pumped into another holding tank ( IBC) to settle.

In a rush the oil goes through a couple of layers of the felt then into the processor.  The processor Dries the oil and circulates it through the water filter so it gets many passes though.  When the oil is dry I turn a valve and the oil goes through the filter and then to the output hose instead of recirculating so I can fill the drums with the " Sippin oil" .

for an onboard filter about 6 years ago I went to the metal housing Subaru Filters. Get them from Dads Wrecking yard and they are great.  Even though they are used I get brilliant life out of them and 9 out of 10 are changed as a preventative rather than a necessity. We have them on everything. The tractor, wood splitter, forklift, tipper, wood wagon and I put one on my lister as well not that it's done more than about a dozen hours or so as well as the china diesels.  I had a lot of trouble finding Filter that would keep up with the consumption of my Nissan 4.2L beast with the Fuel and boost turned up running on veg. Even in summer they would just not flow enough and cause stuttering which was a real pain.
The suby Filters much to my surprise have never caused that even in winter.  They have excellent crap holding capacity as well as flow.

Funny enough, that fine powder is also a problem with veg. Nearly everyone gets it except the people that settle well and use accelerated  settling called Centrifuging.
Mate of Mine Bought a fuge and I asked him to run some of my oil through the thing. We spun up 25L for about 30 min which meant it went though about 12 times and the only thing we found was a very light deposit that you had to look hard to see even when you ran your finger across it. I was amazed and my Scientist come engineer mate was impressed.  I thought a fuge wuld pull much more crap out but my mate pointed out it was only settling the oil faster and clearly my process was working very well only slower and with less time and energy input.

I think you said it's not possible for you to settle for extended periods so maybe a Fuge would be something you could look at as well?
There are the little done type but I'm not a fan of those. You basicaly need clean oil to start with because they use pretty fine jets and it they block....
The bowl type Fuge is much better for this IMHO and a clever man like yourself could probably mill one up anyway. Definately  something that can be done as a DIY project to build one.

I'll be interested to see and hear how the new still works.  The fuel that should come out of that will be the holy grail but given the amount of fuel I was using in the vehicles, wasn't practical for me to do.  It sure produces some nice output though.
I did mine in batches which may have been something to account for slow throughput but It worked for a learning  process.

Are you going to superheat your product?  I found that made all the difference.  When I just condensed the vapors straight off I got a waxy type material and the melting point was quite high surprisingly.  When I ran the output tube back under the keg I was cracking in down through the fire and then out to the water bubbler condenser, The result was miles different.  The output was a mixture of diesel and Petrol in that it would light in a tin from it's own vapor and then eventually burn off with remaining liquid that like diesel needed a bot of heat to keep it going.

I found the Blend to be really good stuff, just time consuming and energy ( Mine and otherwise) intensive.
Do you have any plans as to what temp you try and take your sump gunk or are you just going to condense off any and all vapor output you get?
If you do it right, you'll get a distillate exactly the same weight as Diesel.  Just depends of taking it to the right heat and then condensing it.

If it all turns out to be too much time and effort, I reckon a Fuge would be your next best bet.  :0)

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #695 on: May 22, 2018, 11:00:07 AM »
Hey Glort...

Sorry it took so long to reply...been busy playing....

The filter failure was on the engine side, its a last ditch guard for particle contamination that could make its way through the fuel processing bits... I think there were actually a combination of errors, and the last trap failed as well...no matter, all fun!

I have a sneaking suspicion that some of the WMO that I had included in the process line was actually WICOFBSG (Waste Industrial Coolant Oil From a Bloody Surface Grinder) - Laden with what appears to be Aluminium oxide and Silicon Carbide grinding wheel residue.... then again, maybe some lazy SOB just took the shop floor sweepings and dropped them into the waste oil collection drum... Who knows! (School fees - A more thorough method of processing will be required!!)

I have almost completed my small scale oil stilling plant, man oh man, it is made up of some really "diverse" bits of plumbing and junk - not a pretty toy, but quite effective to say the least! There is one last bit of plumbing to install, and that is to drain the main hot tank to flush out the solids during operation.... I have worked out a way to do it, now just to implement and install it...

Running the creature seems, at this stage, pretty unspectacular, which is a good thing, I DONT like surprises when handling 3 to 500C oil... The duller life is, the better!

I have found that the only "interesting times" are during initial startup, thick, fresh, mildly water contaminated oil - As the first bit of product warms up, water starts to condense on the inside of the cold chamber and pools in small quantities causing small pockets of flash steam - the chip fryer effect - and that causes a bit of the "pucker factor" to develop - once it has come up to temp though, the bulk of the water is dropped in the line and can be drained during operation - I also suspect, that with the piping layout as I am scheming (and muddling) it through, is that once the feed line is near fully filled with water, due to the higher SG of water vs Oil, the feed bowl will shut off and prevent further ingress of mixed goop to the reactor chamber....

In a nutshell, the basic description of the machine is as follows:

1 - Feedstock Inlet control (via a float level to maintain a constant head of goop to supply the heated chamber) - This has a valve to cut off supply, a drain valve to drain any sedimentary moisture, an overflow vent for if the level of the float becomes erratic, a breather vent to atmosphere on the top of the level control chamber to prevent any siphoning effect and a "mid level" outfeed that is above the bottom of the float chamber to avoid settled water..

2 - Long U-Shaped feed pipe that drops out of the feed bowl and slopes upward towards the boiler, the final climb to the boiler is a steep one, this allows for settling water, as the feedstock warms up, to drop away from the boiler inlet. This also has a drain cock on its lowest point, this allows for periodic checking and draining of any water during operation. One "feature" of this pipe is that it has 3 couplings on it, this allows for the seemingly "random" slopes to be set, as well as easier, more compact, storage when stripped down.

3 - The boiler+burner/reactor/pucker factor creator - this is a simple babbington type burner, operating between 1 and 6 Bar, fueled by raw waste goop - Heats a heavy wall pipe type chamber, bottom sealed with removable flange type top - The inlet to the boiler is at the bottom on the side, a 3/4" pipe, near horizontal. The exit is also 3/4", at the top, sloping slightly upward to allow boiled splash to run back into the chamber. This is elbowed vertically, reduced to 1/2" and rises about 200?mm to exit, via an elbow to the condenser. The overall height of the boiler is about 300mm and around 3"diameter. Around this gubbins is a light walled pipe to act as a flame guide and the burner fired into a small flame space below it. The clearance for the flame guide is about 10mm all the way round the boiler, the cavity below it is about 40mm..

4 - Condenser - this is a straight run of copper pipe, 1/2" dia about 4' to 5' long - it is jacketed by a 1"galv pipe filled with water - the jacket has a open reservoir tank at top and a cold water feed at the bottom, water thermo syphons in this little little loop, able to be topped up as needed... Exit temp of the condensate are around 5 degrees warmer than the coolant - so plenty of cooling capacity for what energy I am putting in to it.....

Operation - The feedstock and the fuel for the burner are from the same supply - They can be separated, easily and quickly, this is done by quick coupler.

Once oil is flowing to the works, open the air to the burner and light it up - A stable flame is attained within a minute or two, once the burner warms up.

Listen for flash steam from moisture in the boiler, if there are "chips starting to fry" - wear your brown pants, shut off the heat, wait for the popping to stop, warm it up slowly to cook of the moisture....

Once it is up to temperature, the distilled product starts flowing and it is pretty much a spectator sport thereafter. If you reach saturation point for the boiler contents and output product flow diminishes, either, (a) Step up the heat a bit to fracture the remaining product, or (b) dump the saturated product to waste for flame disposal or painting fence posts or tarring your road. Either way, but the (b) option particularly, is of high pucker factor - this is because of the possibility of introducing high moisture content oil into a reactor chamber of around 300C - BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN!!

This brings me to the next little bit of plumbing I am wanting to implement - the hot residue drain, dumping directly from the chamber to a waste reciever..... (Pucker factor is a way of life I reckon).... My idea: a co-axial drain pipe down the center of the last section of pipe that feeds the boiler....I wonder if it will work....?

Oh, you might ask...Why go to all this puckering trouble....Simple - I am LAZY! If I can distill fuel easily and effectively, no filtering or other treatment is needed, except as a cautionary procedure, a' la' the standard inline filters as are normally found...

Yes, Glort, a 'fuge would be a lovely to to have - it is on my wish-I-had-time-and-materials-to-build-it-list, I am almost there in that respect - only a few more things to get........but - distilling is so much fun, I just cant help myself!!

On another note, I picked up a lovely little v-twin compressor last Sunday, with, happily, 2x unloader poppets on the heads and an unloader regulator on the tank... This is an IDEAL candidate to add to TM1 (there is a bit of space left on his chassis)....

Ah, another thing - the replacement gaskets, cylinder, rings and piston have arrived!!

Ok, enough of my BS rambling....

Keep it Cooking!!

Cheers
Ed

PS - The usual disclaimer - don't try this at home kids!! Hot oil and the like kinda acts like a great solvent for dissolving skin, paint and life!!
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!