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Author Topic: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications  (Read 289447 times)

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #510 on: February 17, 2017, 07:52:12 AM »
Hey Guys....

Just got back into my little office after re-routing emergency power.... Not a power failure in the normal sense of the word, the contractors had to disconnect the power to 1/2 the property to install some plug-points in the section they are renovating.... Unfortunately, the office section also draws power from that section of db board too... Bugger!!

But, as I was ambling around and hooking up some temp wiring and leads, I got to thinking.... Always a dangerous thing, but hey, nothing ventured, nothing gained!!

Here is what I was musing about - The little power meter I installed in TM2's doghouse has ostensibly two inputs - One is a voltage input, which it uses to power the meter itself while monitoring voltage and frequency etc at the same time. The other is a current transformer input, which it uses to monitor the current draw.... Now, here is a bit of a question regarding the BS'ing I did in the closing bits of my last post....

What if I run two power lines through the current transformer coil? (Not from the same source, but 1 from the genhead and one from the 3 phase net metering head.) Of course, there would have to be a bit of "polarity" playing, to ensure that the two sources are in phase and not 180 deg out. I wonder if this would give me a summative value of current supplied or whether they would argue with each other and give a nonsensical reading? There are three conditions available when TM2 is running - As a prime, where it is the only power source - As a net metering unit, where it is supplying power to and existing grid - As a combination, where it is in island mode and supplying its own grid, but using the 3 Phase gen as an assisting unit.... It would make life so much easier if all power could be read on a single meter, rather than installing two.... Just a thought!!

What do you guys think?

Keep it spinning....

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #511 on: February 18, 2017, 09:09:41 AM »
Hey Glort...

Glad u got the meter and its working for you... I am interested in the DC version as well.. I wonder how it measures the current from a non oscillating field? (That's if it uses a pickup coil that is...) Possibly, by oscillating the coil with a set/variable frequency, the loop picks up an inductive change with an increase in current... Who knows?

I am, in the best ZA sense of the word, "gatvol" of having the builders on site... (Pronounced "gut-foll" meaning "Had an arse full") .... Lol... International swearing courses soon available on cd!!.... Looks like the last bit of the building work will be finished by the end of the week.... Then a few days of tilers, then a week or so of painters.... Then I think  I will kick back and drink a six pack or two (of Jack Daniels) to celebrate the impending cleanup...

More a bit later....A mate has just pulled into the driveway...

Back in a mo!

Right....social call dealt with, a mate of mine just got an O-Droid unit for home use and popped round bubbling with enthusiasm as to how much more grunt its got than a pi... Sounds quite cute indeed! While he was here, we took a quick walk through the building work looking at plug-points we are installing.... I am seriously considering the "new" style plug-points with 3xeuro sockets and a few usb supplies built in.... particularly next to bedside and where any pc/cellphone will be resident during the average day/eve... Anybody had any experience with these things running on genset maybe?

Glort.... I have the same problem here as you on your existing place... We have a may of about 60A available from utility, but, for example, the flatlet alone has 10x double 15A outlets alone... all tied in as per req, but should they he pushed to the limit, it will be way more than utility power can provide.... Its never happened before though, so no red flags in the future anyway...

This mate that's just left is a highly qualified and experienced, now retired, radio/electronics tech... I bounced the idea of double sensing using a single pickup coil, off of him, and, like you, he reckons that as long as the phasing is 100% in phase, it should give a summative reading, no problem... I am not wild about dual pickup coils, more to go wrong and another switch to understand for the girls in the household... This setup is already way is bad enough..... Decompress/pump on/start button/check 220v output/throw switch/make sure A reading is less than 20 and away you go..... Add another switch and add up two numbers... Eeeek.... Just will be a bit too much for them I am afraid....

Another thing I am considering is putting in a generator "bus" line.... If we run genset, I provide the electrical power side of things for free.... Since the flatlet will have its own electrical meter for consumption monitoring, it will be unfair to charge the resident thereof for power while on gennie... I will probably install a mini auto changeover there as well. The reason I provide the free power is that everybody, at some stage, has the chore of seeking and fetching waste oil... I process and fuel the beasts, but everybody has to provide a little something towards their upkeep and running....

I foresee, in my immediate future, a few electrical panels being made up.... A replacement and better one for TM1, a new panel for TM2, a new panel for main household, a new panel for flatlet, a 3 way auto combiner for TM1,TM2 and the orange screamer.... So much for taking it easy and watching the sunset over a six pack of JD....

Damn..... I haven't even factored in the very necessary R&M for the existing DB board in the flatlet..... All this urgency... I think I will take out a 22 and go do some shooting... Maybe the nagging feeling will go away.....

Enough rambling...

Keep on plinking...

Cheers
Ed
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 11:57:00 AM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #512 on: February 20, 2017, 09:22:02 AM »
Hey Glort...

That is quite a nice looking spot you ref'd... I looked at the plans and worked it out to be in the region of around 190 sq m at a quick look... And it went for 5 mill? Holy smoke, that's heavy!! (Does it come with a lifetime exemption of rates and taxes, free power and water, gilt taps and door handles maybe?)

This dump I own is around 320m, with about 200 additional workshops and outbuildings and on around 47000 of land.... I thought this was pricey at 1.5 ZAR.... Tell you what, get your papers together, you can come out this way and buy a mansion using your credit card!!

Here's a slightly different, and way off topic little thing from me as per usual... Although we have municipal water supply to the house, I don't use it. I have around 60Kl of tanks set up with 2x electrical, pressure on demand, type pumps... The problem with these pump things is that whether you run a full bath, or just a glass of water, the pump starts up... Solution: install a couple of "pressure accumulators" on the pressure line to take up small flow demands. I have made a couple from some old Ali fire extinguishers and Tee-d them into the pressure line. They are installed upside down and simply on a t piece. Any air bubbles in the lines keep them reasonably full of air for a good few months at a time too. When the pressure pump comes on, it compresses the trapped air in the top of the cylinder and allows for about 5L of usage before the pumps kick back in to re-pressurize the system. I have set the pumps to come on at around 1 bar and go off at around 4 bar. Now, the pumps don't go on/off for every whim and fancy.... Probably saves quite a bit of juice too.... These pumps normally last around 2 to 3 years on an average around here... (Quality is not the best.) ... So far, the one pump is already 5 years plus and the other is just over 3... I use 2 pumps to allow for a bit of redundancy - there is a gate valve between them on a common output that I just crack open slightly to allow "cross-flow" between the 2 halves of the water system for the household. If one fails, the other takes over until I can get to sorting out the problem... Also, if there is high flow demand, both pumps kick in and work together... Much better than the previous system I was using that only had a single, but bigger pump...

Again I have digressed.... Time to go fit another accumulator to the system rather than toss it in the ali scrap bin!!

Keep it spinning....

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

Crossword

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #513 on: February 23, 2017, 05:21:38 AM »
Hey Guys , Find out more about Lister Diesel Engine. I have made a new blog about Lister Diesel Engine. It has some real good information that might will help you. Also mentioned about parts and all that.

Check it out https://dieselengineanditsspareparts.blogspot.in/

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #514 on: February 23, 2017, 12:56:49 PM »
Hey Glort...

"Plumber Pete" this side.... Guess what I am doing for the next few days!  ::)

In the next little while I will be running the electricals through for the flatlet - it entails a DB board sort out and go-over as well, then about a dozen plug points to re-install, as the old ones were rusted to buggery and new style plastic housings installed in the wall... We had a major damp problem in the flatlet up until a few years back, but sorting out guttering and installing catch tanks has dried it up nicely... I managed to get a couple of those plug units that have built in USB charging as well... Going to install them in a couple of bedrooms while I am at it... There is always a problem with the "Wall Cockroach" type chargers... A minor bit of cable pull and the damn things lose contact... Here in ZA, the round pin 15A, 3 point plugs and sockets are rife, nett result is that there are always a bunch of cheezy adaptors floating around to go to euro style chargers... a right PITA because of the low quality...

Furniture has already started to arrive for the flatlet, its now filled the lounge as well as a few other rooms, I am living in a real world game of tetris... I even have to step onto the porch to change my mind....

One good thing though... The tilers are here and the 1000kg stack of ceramic floor tiles is going down rapidly! Soon I will be able to get to the fuel dryer for TM1 - He has been "off line" since they delivered the tiles due to lack of readily accessible fuel - I have cringed whenever I have turned on the shower, as the hot-on-demand gas geyser has kicked in!! (Yep, I know, I am a cheapskate at heart!!)

To get rid of a bit of water hammer, just take about 2' of 2" galv pipe, cap one end, reduce the other and tee it into your incoming water line - put the pipe upwards and if you are really pedantic, stick a schraeder valve on the top cap - pump it up every now and then using a bicycle pump as needed - that will give plenty cushioning to stop the hammer when a valve snaps shut... Easy and cheap to do too!

Our tele lines went down a couple hours ago.... Damn, I ended up with withdrawal symptoms - No forum causes major shakes!!

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed

PS - Just got a copy of the hunting gazette - Looks like Hadeda Ibis is no longer a protected species in my area - They are the bane of my life with water contamination - these damn things even crap a dent into a car roof when they let go!! - Time to bring out the tools to do some pest control!!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 01:00:30 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #515 on: March 06, 2017, 12:00:41 PM »
Hey Guys...

Sorry for my absence over the last 2 weeks, I have been flat out trying to get the flatlet ready and ship shape for the tenant... I have promised myself that EVERYTHING will be on a back-burner until its done... (unfortunately, that includes playing with the Listers, cracking some oil, sorting out the workshop, servicing TM1, scrounging sump-gunk...etc etc etc....  :-[   )

All I can say is: I feel in perfect health and fitness ..... for a man of 110!

The flatlet, meanwhile, is coming out awesome!! I have made offers to the tenant to the tunes of: "Free board and lodging, full use of the main house, free food, free electricity, free .... What else can I offer? .... All to no avail!! She is so enthralled with the place and the way it is developing, I think she spies my plan of cornering the spot for myself... Bugger!!! (especially when I accidentally made mention of a bit of quick surgery with an angle grinder, install a doorway, and I have quick and easy access straight from the bedroom to my workshop!!) Pictures here.... http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Flat Renovations Feb2017

On the subject of Listers... TM1 is a right PITA to start at the moment, his IP is well worn, undersized too.. It was a 10mm element which I downgraded to an 8mm for testing... It worked well, but didnt last as long as the 10mm units do - The piston has a very short "separate crown" in comparison to the 10mm units, not much leeway for wear, and they wear significantly faster because of this (I think).... There is no fuel leaking from the bottom of the pump, you just have to wind the revs up pretty high on the starter to get things creaking properly... Anybody had similar with the smaller crowned IP's maybe?

Other than that, TM1 is still thumping away quietly in the evenings for an hour or so every day (When I get a chance to run him and I am not doing F!@#$% plumbing till 10pm), still eating sump gunk, still getting steam cleaned internals, still making power and hot water... At the moment, the IP is so bad, he barely makes around 3.5 to 4Kw before he starts losing it... Not too much "rolling coal" as Glort puts it, but definitely way down on power... There is, I am sure, just not enough gunk getting into the cylinder to make him do work (I hope)... Changing the IP element is next on the list to keep him going until I can sort out the rings problem... There is a bit of blow-by, but certainly not the worst that I have seen before.... The non return valve on the IP Line also needs a bit of a look at I reckon, there is a fair bit of "bouncing" in the manometer I have on the fuel line - this generally indicates that it is not sealing properly.... I will probably just rework it and replace the IP element at the same time... Nuff' sed!

Keep it spinning!!

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

buickanddeere

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #516 on: March 06, 2017, 02:33:44 PM »
I have never seen a well water system here without an accumulator , we call it a pressure tank. Some are equipped with a rubber bladder to prevent water logging. Typical capacity is 10-25 gallons between pump cycles .

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #517 on: March 07, 2017, 08:04:05 AM »
Hey Glort/B&D,

Glort: Methanol is a bit of a bugger to get, or was anyway.... I was always trying to get some for the R/C heli's and eventually gave up and bought from the hobby boys at ridiculous pricing... Home brew might be an option, but I would probably end up sucking it all down myself, all in an effort to alleviate frustration of dust/dust/dust/builders/dust/dust/plumbing/dust/dust/electrical/dust/dust.... Enough said!!

You are welcome to take over the flat - just deal with the existing/future tenant first!! (Man, that is something that is gonna go on youtube if it happens... She is "strong willed", "resolute" and a teacher.... Comes from farming stock too... I hope you have a bull whip and a chair, body armor and a strong will.... you are gonna need it!!)

Bummer re the house hunt, keep going and don't settle for less than you will be happy with!! (ie plenty of workshop space and neighbors a 100km away but in the heart of the city!)

B&D: We run off of harvested tank water most of the time. I have about 3 or 4 boreholes on the property but they are mostly caved-in and blocked up. The ground water is good quality, reasonably constant, and fairly close to the surface at last check. The expense of opening them up again is a bit prohibitive, not for the opening, but replacement of cables and pumps from a theft aspect - The locals here appropriate any form of copper at their will, with little or no repercussion from the law, even when you capture them red-handed!

I have a couple of small header tanks mounted at 4-5m for low pressure systems, but the bulk of the water is at ground level with pressure-on-demand type pumps, the new style without the hydrosphere/accumulator. They work well, but take a hammering in general. Gone are the days of the accumulator in this area by the looks of it, it is far more profitable for the suppliers to move replacement pumps!!

A while back I did look into getting hold of a pulley driven pump for direct coupling to TM1 or 2, the pricing was ridiculous - ZAR5k+ for a 1" fairly low pressure pump... that pricing changed my mind immediately... Interestingly, the little electrical pressure on demand units (370W/4Bar) were only around ZAR1.2k, and that included the pressure switching unit as well....

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #518 on: March 07, 2017, 01:28:54 PM »
Hey Guys...

Here's an interesting one....

Looks like TM1 broke a ring last night during his run.... (Eventually, been expecting it since the seize a while back...) Compression is way down, LOTS of blow by, and pretty much impossible to start, even on the 220v starter... Right, so not much interesting there, but....

Here's the interesting bit:

While I was piddling aboot wif him, I quickly rebuilt the IP and installed a new element... 10min well spent as it has been long overdue anyway... I thought, what the hell, lets give him a wind over and see what he does, just for S&G....

I wound him up good and well on the starter for a few minutes, allowing the air to bleed out the IP lines (Man, a 100% duty cycle rated starter is great!!)... When I dropped the compression release, there was the "usual" sound of first firing, then knocking of note... as if he was starting on ether.... I pottered around a bit, checked IP timing, checked that there was no solvents in the lines etc, then wound him over again to see what happened... Same again, first compression stroke a nice sounding diesel event, then getting less and less as knocking got worse and worse...

Now, TM1 has a crank vent that feeds into the air intake - when I pulled the vent out of the intake, there was major ring bypass in progress.... The unburnt and partially burnt ventings that are being fed into the intake are causing him to pre-ignite as they get compressed.... Again, of interest, there has been no evidence or indication of a runaway while he was running...

Anybody else had similar??

Keep it smoking....

Cheers
Ed

Edit: Here's one for everybody to chew on.... Something was plaguing me, something I might have missed.... I took another look at the IP pump and timing on TM1 (rebuilt the pump again, just for good measure in case I missed anything)...

Interesting times....

It looks like something is squiff with the IP cam... When I set the timing to around 20 degrees BTDC, the pump bottoms out ... This is quite unusual, because I used to be able to set him up to around 25 degrees BTDC with no bottoming before...(A hint guys: when you set timing, turn the flywheel over SLOWLY and CAREFULLY by hand and feel for pump bottoming or other resistance, it could save you some $$$ and tears).

I have run a quick check on TDC marks on the flywheel by watching for the valves going "on the rock" and things are pretty much ok in that department, so flywheels haven't shifted, nor has the cam gear lost a tooth and moved either... The only thing that seems out of place is the IP timing, to the tune of about 15 degrees by a rough guestimate...

I pulled the IP plunger and had a look at roller et al... All seems fine in that department... This situation seems "quite unusual" and, barring an incident many years ago on another CS type engine, where a cotter pin snapped and allowed IP timing to vary at random this seems strange to say the least.... Looks like I will have to pull a flywheel and see whats happening behind the governor housing when I get a chance... Oh, and the major knocking saga? Looks like that with the injector timing being so retarded, the combustion chamber volume was filling up with unburnt fuel (WMO - Thanks to 220v starter and extra long cranking capabilities), compression ratios went up, and any vapors present decided to ignite a little before they should (euphemistically speaking of course....thump, crack, hammer, hammer!)

Who knows? But a quiet tear down of the governor side to poke around and have a look at seems to be the order of the day! (Any forecasts as to what I will find?)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 04:14:37 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #519 on: March 08, 2017, 09:12:06 AM »
Hey Glort,

Actually, I do think that these engines, if set up and balanced correctly, fed good quality fuel and oil, maintained, are quite reliable - for 100yr old technology!

Feed it junk fuel, extend the oil change intervals, and be brutal with it... then they get angry and try and bite you!

We all know the Injun roids are not up to the standard of the originals, in not only dimensional aspect but in material aspect as well. I dare say that a marked improvement in either of those two aspects would lend itself to a much longer lived unit. Better materials would allow for better longevity and a more tolerable "marginally out of spec" dimensions, and vice versa...

TM2 is present and accounted for, he gets used for "emergency purposes only" TM1 is the main evening runner as such though. Neither is a critical part of our day to day life actually, just pretty handy when the lights go out and they allow us to live life with all the mod-cons while the rest of the suburb sits in darkness... Of course, TM1 has been a great toy for getting rid of the local goop, rather than having some miscreant dump it in the bush...

I am going to give TM1 a going over as soon as the flatlet is done, hopefully next week or so, it will be interesting to see what the actual problem is... I might have missed something in the rush yesterday and jumped to some rather large conclusions... Possibly there is much simpler problem to the problem indeed... Its amazing what a bit of thought can lend to the mix.... It might just be, that the non return valve on the IP is not sealing properly... if it gets really bad it doesn't hold line pressure after the injection event terminates, the line de-pressurises and as such retards the next injection event a bit... Who knows?... When I get a bit more time, I will give things a good coat of looking at and see what I can find! (This, of course, doesn't explain the reason for not being able to set the timing to 20BTDC before the pump bottoms out though...)

Keep it spinning...

Cheerz
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #520 on: April 22, 2017, 08:33:34 AM »
Hey Guys....

And now for something completely different.... Glort, you are going to enjoy this....

Firstly an apology for my long absence.... The builders have finished and the great cleanup is in progress... I have been lurking in the sidelines reading all the happenings, most enjoyably!

Yesterday, between sorting piles of stuff and pushing brooms, I came across a pile of bits that I had put aside and earmarked for building a little waste oil burner.... my target was around 80kw, and I think it's pretty close... Being an "easily distracted" type of fellow, it was not long and the broom was tossed aside and a welder was employed instead thereof to allow for a bit of creative R&R...

Here are a few pics and vids of the first run up and test... ok, I realise its not a lister, but its still a bit of fun you guys might find interesting.... I haven't set up a fuel tank for it yet, but i did make a slight change (so as not to infringe on your patents, Glort) ... I installed a 2"T piece on the inlet where the fuel line is to be inserted .... This allows, with removal of the reducer, a handy port to stuff burning debris into, for the initial fire up... The vids were taken late evening, with a regular cel camera and no
additional lighting... It is running at about 70% or so capacity with only a little oil poured into the chamber to get it to fire and test... the air line is "loose coupled" with about a 6"gap between the inlet and the blower outlet, so there is about 50% of the draft going to waste... Still very impressive though... a cooldrink tin was held in front of the outlet and it burnt about a 1.5" hole straight through it in less than 3 seconds.... "Dragon mk1" has been born! No need to paint it.... Incandescent white seems to be a natural running colour........

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Vapourising Oil Burner 20170421

Enjoy!

Keep it smoking....

Cheers
Ed
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 08:45:55 AM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #521 on: April 23, 2017, 08:35:51 PM »
Hey Glort....

Nice score on the blower today... Well done, its amazing what some guys throw out for the silliest of reasons... Tell me more about the Raptor type nozzle... I am not familiar with the term...

I have finished the fuel inlet and flame/fuel control side of the burner now. I ran it up to about 75% power and it looks like I wasn't too far off my target of 100kw... At 75% it uses up about 12L of WMO / hr, so I am guessing thats about 120Kw or so... I reckon I could have pushed the output up a bit, but it wasn't 100% safe to do it under the workshop roof in close-ish proximity to some plastic drums of WMO that I didn't feel like moving... plus there was a thunderstorm on the way and I didn't feel like moving the dragon outside away from the oil either.... Next task is to install a small heat shield to protect the fuel line a bit and it should be pretty much complete... This baby is side inlet, but can be run either vertically with an elbow, or horizontally with a straight outlet or even inverted with a downwards outlet if needed... The fuel line is 5mm, and with about only 1m head, it flows quite fine... No need for pump as yet. I did play one little trick, and that was to have the inlet pipe in the center of the airflow, with a 90 degree bend and having the exit on the leeward side after a couple of inches  of straight run with the airstream.

To make for easy lighting, I have used a 2" pipe coupling that the "ïnjector pipe" is coupled to and then only hand tightened for running... The 2" inlet into the T piece allows for more than enough opening to stick a piece of rag  and slosh some kero into to fire things up... I don't even turn on the fan when its in vertical mode during light up... The chimney effect is more than enough to get the air pulled into the combustion chamber to start things going... Once everything is warmed up, I crack open the valve about 1/4 turn an dribble a bit of oil in until it starts to black smoke... Give it a couple of minutes then start the blower with reduced input, and away it goes...

I took a couple of vids of it running at 75% output, they are in the same folder as the link in my previous post, take a look and give me a second opinion... In the last vid I took, I was running about 20% throttle or so, and even then, it was holding combustion chamber temp and stability very nicely...

I think this unit will do well on a small forge as well as a small furnace to smelt some small amounts of ali for casting some trinkets and Lister accessories.... Woohoo ... Slipped in the L word so I can say this is pertinent to the board....

Again I ramble...

Keep on burning....

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #522 on: April 24, 2017, 09:16:46 AM »
Hey Glort....

Ok... Gotcha regarding the Raptor nozzles... For the life of me, all I could think of was Jurassic Park and a dinosaur puking flames...  ;D

Then again... I also pictured an eagle doing similar... Doesn't help to think in pictures if you are watching the wrong scene!!

I think I hit the magic numbers on this flamer that I have built - the fuel inlet seems to be at just the right position/size/ratio by luck.... The more you wind up the air, the more it "carburates" and draws more fuel in too.... Only when you pull back the air to a trickle do you need to close the fuel valve a bit otherwise it runs a bit "rich" and the flame oranges and reds and it gets a bit dirty on the burn.... Nice for a carburising flame though, particularly for keeping surface carbon content up in the forging department I reckon.....

I need to make a better way to start it though, as occasionally I get a small amount of dribble back towards the fan while priming... Easily overcome by canting the inlet downward slightly, but easily forgotten too! (I haven't canted the inlet downwards, in favour of better gas dynamics and combustion expansion restriction - Easily adjusted should I find need to, nothing like a bulldozer blade lowered gently down on the inlet junction to change its angle....Permanently!)

I didn't obey the rules entirely with this unit's build - I still need to do a minor mod to the output side (Make it bigger) as I didn't have a spare 3" fitting while I was glueing things together... I also use as much of an induced spin in the inlet air as I can - the inlet radius is almost "outside" the circumference of the combustion chamber (Or it would be with another 1/4" or so!) - Like the old machinists adage - Never let the ID exceed the OD!! The way these things operate is basically the same as a Ram Jet - add air through a small hole, add fuel in the middle, exhaust out a bigger hole - pressure at inlet and exhaust are similar, difference in area of the two openings x pressure = thrust....... Hmmm.... Now, I have a Honda Silverwing.... I wonder if Mach 3 is a viable option.... Might not be entirely safe, but what a rush!!!

Keep it flaming....

Cheers
Ed

12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #523 on: April 28, 2017, 10:41:11 AM »
Hey Glort...

You often make me think and rethink a method or process.... This is another time.... THANKS!

Your comments "inspired" me to relook at the fuel inlet system and I think I have come up with a fairly simple idea...

One of the problems with these burners is that the harder you rev them from an air point of view, the higher the back-pressure on the fuel inlet, hence with an unpressurized fuel tank, gravity fed, gravity gets overcome by the pressure in the inlet manifold and eventually fuel supply dwindles to zero and you flame out.... One way to overcome this, is to put a low pressure on top of the fuel from, say, an air compressor, regulated to 1/2 bar or less.... This makes a big difference in controllability et al, to say the least... The disadvantage of this though, is that you have to run a compressor in the background, albeit very intermittantly, to maintain fuel pressure... Another way, is of course using a metered fuel pump... Both of which, while effective, could lead to overfuelling quite quickly should your main air blower lose efficiency or stop.....

Now, what about this: Pipe a line from the manifold, right at fan inlet from the blower to the top of your fuel tank... As back pressure increases, so does fuel pressure, and vice-versa... No compressor needed, no dosing pump either.... Just a thought... Kiss at its best I reckon.... Have you tried this yet?

The reason I am now looking at a low pressure tank system, is that I am testing on some really nasty thick waterlogged gunk (about 60W or slightly more at a guess) - I don't want to refine or preheat it, the less I handle it, the better! I have found that with this stuff, flow to the combustion chamber is a problem - it runs nicely, but heat output is way down in comparison to a few other thinner tankfulls I have put through.....

Just a thought...

Oh, and the relevance to Listers?.... I am hoping to use this setup to trial crack and still some fuel for my beasties!!

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #524 on: April 29, 2017, 11:02:11 PM »
Damn.....

And here I was, the student, hoping I could teach the teacher..... even just a little trick....!

 ::)

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!