The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications

[EdDee]

Hey Glort,

I agree re the settling time, the longer the better!! No question about it!!

Currently I am not carrying a large stock of WMO due to storage constraints, I can only store about 4 to 600 L of oil to recycle at any given time.

The "system" I currently use is loosely as follows:

Oil arrives in 200L or smaller containers, these are decanted into an upright 200L settling drum.
After as long a settling time as is possible, minimum of 7 days, the top 2/3 is pumped off through a filter into the "Usage" tank.(Not really long enough, I know, but it is the best I can do at the moment.)

The usage tank is a 200L drum, horizontal, but the bottom is tilted away from the exit, leaving around 20L or slightly more for crap to roll to the back.(The really fine stuff separates out over here, as it takes a few weeks to go through the batch.)

When the drum approaches empty, it gets tilted 20deg or so forward, left to settle for a day or so, then the sludge/sediment is drained till good oil shows at the tap. This is then returned to the backward slope and the drum is refilled with "new" old oil...

The settling drum gets its lower reaches drained every few refills - this goes into the fuel heater/stirrer/filter machine...Around 60 or so L at a time... The residue from the machine goes into a "really really really bad oil plastic drum" - this gunk drum has not filled up yet and I have processed a good few 1000 L so far....(Anybody want some mineral oil based sandwich spread?)

What I have found in the longish term so far, is that the filtration takes quite a while when using gravity. I am hoping to speed this up by using a single cylinder pneumatic cylinder as a pump. Effectively, how I am going to do it: one side of the cylinder is a piston pump pumping the oil, The shaft side of the cylinder will be tethered with a spring return and charged with compressed air for the power stroke to push the oil through a rather large filter unit I have constructed. When the power stroke is done, the shaft hits a toggle and exhausts the air for the ram to be pulled back by spring tension, recharging the pump side of the ram. Once pulled back fully, it hits the toggle and the cycle starts again...

I have elected to go low speed piston pump for a few reasons - the primary being that any dirt clumps or water in the fuel will not be broken down into smaller units, particularly the water. I have found that a sure way to clog a low pressure filter sock system is to put emulsified oil/water through it. Flow stops almost immediately. Secondly, pressure can be regulated VERY VERY easily by regulating the input air pressure. Thirdly, and probably most importantly, should the flow through the filter be restricted, it is not a truly "positive displacement" type system because of the air drive I am using, so no pressure relief equipment will be used in the contaminated oil flow...Should flow stop, the pump simply stalls....(Another, more important reason for me is that there is no way on this planet that I want to stuff up a good, working, hydraulic gear pump with old sh!tty oil... I am way too tight-arsed....)

What I am hoping to achieve is a reasonably easy and relatively quick filter method using the available junk I have lying around!

Lets see how it pans out!!

Comments appreciated!

Cheerz
Ed

[BruceM]

I enjoyed reading about your proposed pneumatic cylinder based pump, Ed.  I hope you'll post a picture or two when you get it going.  I use a pneumatic diaphram pump I got used on the cheap to transfer my fuel to my gravity feed tank...but see that these pumps seem to be very expensive now, even used on ebay.  Air cylinders are often to be had quite cheaply used and using one as a pump as you suggest is very appealing. Since you're using used motor oil you should be fine re: the Buna rubber O-ring seals.  Veggie oil wrecks most rubber very quickly...a lesson I learned the hard way when when I was running biodiesel.  I bought a cheap manual rotary transfer pump- worked great; went to use it two weeks later and it would no longer pump- all the seals were gone.

[EdDee]

Hey Bruce/Glort,

Bruce: No problem re the pics, I will post some when the time comes...most of the system is in "distributed processing mode" as it now stands....ie I am have most of the junk spread around the workshop and not in one place(except the filter unit, that is in use already.)

Glort: You make me blush....you have a far higher opinion of my capabilities than I do!

Centrifugal pumps are certainly an option - If the cr@p is already suspended in the good stuff and it is not viable to settle it out because of minimum SG differences et al... I am trying this piston pump setup out to try and keep the dirt "together" and not mix it in or break it down any further...Particularly because, as mentioned previously, I just dont have the facilities for longer settling at present.....

Gear pumps work a treat! they are awesome little machines that can really deliver - I think your flow restrictions you have come up against are more to do with cavitation due to input side restrictions than anything else... a sure way to slow down the flow on the little buggers is to restrict the input, even marginally, it makes a BIG difference....

Roller pumps are pretty cool too... Merc has a 12v unit that is "inside tank" for their sedans.... nicely engineered, but pretty useless on liquids with higher visco than diesel if you need lots of flow...again, they starve due to in port size...

Possibly the used pumps have already "worn in" from an alignment perspective - change that, and you will be quite tight and noisy until they wear into their new position....In fact, I have seen similar on badly aligned hydraulic power packs in the past...Do the service, sort out the shaft alignment and they are noisy as hell...creep the motor back towards the out of alignment "where it was running before" position and thing quiet down....Go figure....

Anyways....I ramble again...

Let me get off my butt and go and put some junk together into something usable....

Keep it pumping...

Regds
Ed

[EdDee]

Hey Guys,

Hooked up the "pump" a few days ago and gave it a brief test... Had to kludge together a multitude of springs for the suction return stroke, this gunk that I am pumping is quite "thick" to put it mildly... The pump works a treat, was doing it on a "manual" control type cycle by simply blowing 20psi air into the bugger with a blow gun as and when required. It displaces around 1 1/2 Liters per stroke, nice and smooth, with only one minor drawback - The cylinder I am using has(had) a built in "End Stroke Damper" which is internally ported to a small, adjustable orifice on the end plates. Nothing that a quick strip down(4 Bolts), remove the buffer seal(One dig with a screwdriver), re-assembly(4 bolts) and continue, didn't sort out...

Sounds simple, quick and easy.... It was!! (Now the difficult thing is to clean up the area where I stripped it down... I am sure that they use old sump oil in bubble-jet printer cartridges... This stuff doesn't so much wipe-up as "smear" to give everything in close proximity a dull black shine....but that's another story...)

The filter seems to be performing well(at this stage), the next task is to put a semi automated air feed system onto the pump and start pumping! (Possibly a pressure gauge on the output might be a good thing too.... Just to ensure that things are running within the filters' limits....)

Enough Rambling....

Lemme carry on trying to navigate the wide account-an-seas of international funds transfer to try and get some Lister spares....

Keep it pumping...

Cheers
Ed

[BruceM]

1.5 liters per stroke- that's a big air cylinder!  I'm looking forward to seeing more about your air cylinder based pump, Ed!

[EdDee]

Yep Bruce...

Its quite "large" .... Considering the stroke is only a little over and inch or two!!

Cheerz
E

[EdDee]

Hey Guys,

Another day in paradise!!

Eventually got round to doing the much awaited cylinder head swop-out... This happened because my temp valve job started to get a little bit "blowey" and causing me to lose a bit of power under heavy load. (The temp job has lasted about 1000hrs, so I cant really complain...)

While I had the head off(or just before actually) I employed my much vaunted "Resonance via Impact Induction" decarboning regime on the first 3m or so of exhaust... Spectacular to say the least!! ... Chunks of black shite erupted from the end of the pipe.... All over me, the driveway, the .... Well, you get my drift... I can't help it, I am a slow learner.... What I did find interesting, was the exhaust blocking up virtually solid on the last bend before it hits the building-fixed main upright.... This resulted in a rather interesting phenomenon.... The overall aperture that wasnt blocked was in the region of around 1/4" worth of gas passage remaining... The back-pressure must have been quite immense... Almost instantly the engine got the worst diesel knock I have EVER heard... So much so, that I thought the thing was about to throw a rod!

I immediately shut down fuel and coasted it to a virtual stop, ticking over slowly under hand control.... No more knock... Allowed it to speed up slowly, still no knock.... As I allowed it to come up to almost full revs, the knock started and became rapidly worse...

What I surmise was happening, is that the immense back-pressure builds up and forces the exhaust valve slightly open during the intake stroke, this admits very hot gas into the cylinder on the stroke and when the fuel hits this overly hot mixture on the compression stroke, detonation, rather than controlled combustion, occurs... (I did remove the head just after this and I did check... No evidence of valves hitting the piston crown, or heavy carbon chunks being pulverised either.) The combustion chamber/head inner/piston crown/exhaust port shows relatively little carbon deposit(Less than .5mm all round) after about 1000hrs of gunk fuel being put through it.... Old man hydro is doing his job!! (Cant say the same for the exhaust though - as this unit has an "aftercooler heatex", I am picking up quite a bit of carbon in the pipework!)

Enough rambling...

Keep it spinning..
Ed

[EdDee]

Hey Glort!

U r a STAR!!!

Brilliant Idea with the chain!! Most of my runs are fairly straight with T pieces every now and then, most runs have access from one end via a T...

The chain Idea will work brilliantly!! I have boiler tube brushes, but I only use them where I have an "exit" on the pipe being cleaned - they "Ratchet" into the pipe and can only be reversed mid stroke with a hell of an effort and ultimately stuffed up by doing so....

WI into the pipe has been tried, with great success to the cleaning, but a few frowns (euphemistically speaking) from the residents of the household....Washing turns a a marvelous spotty black/grey, white cars go spotty black/grey....even the dogs!

My problems with the carbon buildup occurred due to the water feed being turned down a little too low I think... I have been boosting it a bit and the "thump-thump" from the exhaust end is becoming more evident.... I am considering a intermittent dosing system, semi automated... Just need to find a low pressure water solenoid valve that runs at 220v - I must have one round here somewhere...

What I am considering doing is hooking the 220v high heat fan output to the solenoid as well as the fan - when TM hits top temperature, as well as the fan kicking in, the flood gates open too(in a regulated fashion of course) this will allow a slightly higher than normal dose of water to be admitted, easy to regulate via a small needle valve, this will not only cool, but steam clean the innards as well when at top temp. I have found that the running temp can be easily regulated by the water flow, fine tuned so as to speak. The problems occur when the load varies and the water flow doesnt - so what I am planning to do is put a minimal trickle in as per previous for low power running, but boosting it when the temp spikes due to high load... When in place, it shouldn't need much human input at all... Also no electronics, just simple electrical stuff, hooking onto what is already there...

Your thoughts?

Keep it steamin'.....

Cheers
Ed

[mike90045]

Great.  Now I wonder if I have to pull my muffler and swab the pipe every other year. (which should have been last year ! )

[EdDee]

Hey Glort/Mike,

Hmm....That gas blowtorch idea could be fun.... Especially with the dry grass only about 10 to 15m away from the exhaust outlet...

Picture the scene:
A Lister thumping away romantically in the background... A nice cold beverage as the sun goes down... A warm glowing fire.... No fireplace.... 

I think I am gonna have to stick to the colder methods of decarboning for a while..... Dunno why.... Just this little voice.....

Mike, a sure way to see if you need to clear the pipes - "Just Listen" - if there isn't, or is very little, exhaust pulse at the outlet and the exhaust sounds more of a jet than a pulse, its probably time... that's what I have picked up on my system.... Another telltale is the gradual appearance of soot from any clamped joint as back-pressure builds up... That was another symptom I ignored for a while....

Strangely enough, there was another symptom that reared its head - Not sure it is related, but maybe... Sump Oil consumption - Not sure if it was a combination of the valves needing attention as well as a clogged exhaust stack, but the beast has been a little thirsty for sump oil for a while.. He has needed a top off on the oil level every other day or so, after around 6 to 10 hrs of running... Since doing the Cylinder head swap and de-carbon, (The Cylinder was not removed, nor were rings exposed during the operation) TM hasn't needed to be topped off at all...  This usage would normally indicate excessive sump pressure or a stuck CC breather valve or perhaps even worn or suck oil control rings, but they have been in good order and not touched during the last maintenance spell, so nothing changed there... I did notice, a long while back, that excessively loose and sloppy valve clearances caused a marked spike in oil consumption when a rocker bush seized and failed.... At the time, I wrote it off to a "glitch in the matrix" and thought nothing further of it.. Anybody else had a similar experience?

Lets see whether the "Matrix Stabilizes" and oil consumption lowers long term....

Keep it thumping.....

Cheers
Ed

PS....Finally found the pic of a thumpmonster I liked!

[EdDee]

Hey Guys,

Here are some pics of TM1's Head and combustion areas I took yesterday... Not great quality, but it gives some idea of the (lack of) carbon and deposit buildup after running around 1k hrs or so on virtually 100% WMO ... The water induction on the inlet is doing a sterling job of keeping most of the crud at bay....

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 COV Plug and Head after 1000hr WMO Running 20160921

Overall, I am more than satisfied. The carbon deposits are more of a problem in the exhaust runs than in the engine itself.

What is of interest is the way that the exhaust valve has backed into the head, an old problem, and the main one that made me take the head off to get sorted. Around 1k hrs ago, the valve and seat had started to fail, a temp reseat job was done with only the basic tools I have(Barring a lathe that I used to cut the valve face) and it has survived quite well....

Cheers
Ed

PS - Some interesting stats, bits n' bobs' I have on record to date:

Total Runtime: 2504hrs
Fuel Usage: 3516L, mostly WMO
L/KwH: Currently 0.598
KwH/L:Currently 1.672
L/Hr:Currently 1.404
KwH Last Run Session 2.33
Total KwH Produced to date: 5880

Total water heating LPG estimated saved over 14mo Period: 21 x 14Kg Bottles

Fuel Used: WMO / Contaminated and recycled Diesel, Thinners, Petrol, ATF, Transformer Oil, Paraffin, Various other grades of mineral oil, WVO... if its liquid, oil based and burns, it gets used. (Sometimes, if it just burns its good enough!!)

Residual oils that are badly contaminated with water and coolant left on hand after recycling 3500L of gunk - <200L (Soon to be gone through again and more reclaimed)

Most common used spares for maintenance - Fuel and oil filters.

Other maintenance spares used: 1 x set rings, 2xhead gaskets/Oil pump seal/IP elements x 2

Warranty spares used: 1x Crankshaft/1xBig end Bearing

Highlights(The things that I remember most):
Crank failure at 1500hrs due to bad lube oil standpipes.
Vibration issues and balancing of flywheels
Finding the best injector timing position for WMO
Water injection Installation
Electric starting
Heat Recovery from Exhaust and Coolant


And....

of course....

Lots of FUN!

[EdDee]

Hey Glort!

Thanks for the compliments!!

As pretty much always, agreed on what you say about the parroted mantras!!

One thing that I guestimated in the numbers was the LPG that we would have burnt through during this time period - around 21 Bottles... That equates to a significant cost saving on its own.. Around ZAR5500 at today's prices... I remember a couple of weeks ago, chatting to my housemate, basically on the cost vs saving of running TM... It went loosely around the basic facts that as a pure electrical generator, it was pretty much break-even with a little bit of saving, the savings basically covering the spares and mods on a daily basis (as well as fuel, being that the going rate for WMO is around one ZAR if I cant find someone who wants to dump it.) The hot water/gas saving is the cream on top!!

But, as always, its generally the fun side of things that keep them going!! (I must admit though, sometimes the fun of lifting 500kg of motor is not so much fun!!)

And, above all, the camaraderie of a bunch of other twats like me around the world involved in similar shenanigans!!

Keep it spinning!!

Cheers
Ed

[Tom]

EdDee, how's the bore looking in that engine? Still running the piston with 2 top rings?

[dieselspanner]

Well I'm more than happy to be one of the twats!!

Cheers Stef

[EdDee]

Hey Tom/Stef,

Bore seems fine still. A slight ridge, but nothing to write home about... Nothing compared to previous stripdown, where there was a substantial ridge that I had to carve down, but then again, there are still another 500 or so hours to go before it hits the same time frame as previous.

I didnt clean the bore, not even wipe it in fact, when I put the "new" head on. Just worked very, very carefully and made ultra sure as little as possible was disturbed. In hindsight, I should probs have taken a few pics for record purposes, but with my ass hanging out of the gen shed and a storm approaching (which never materialized anyway), I kinda did what was required and not much more...

I did notice, from the short run when it was detonating, that there was a fair amount of soot sticking to the bore itself... No matter, a few secs of run time scraped it off after and all was well(I presume, as there is little blow-by and venting from the cc breather)...

On the note of the CC breather - I have eventually routed it to the intake manifold... I got tired of the oily film that gets deposited and picks up dust... There is not much breather activity on this beast - surprising actually..... To keep things to "scale", I made the breather out of 40mm Galve pipe and some bends from a radiator hose.... It crosses from the CC vent extension around the front of the engine, at about the height of the cylinder head and lower than the rocker cover... Looks quite neat(for a change).... I abandoned the venting into the rocker cover, while it works, its a bit messy from a dust turning into grinding paste point of view...

I normally run with fairly loose valve clearances to allow for a bit of carbon deposit on the seats, but yesterday I went back to finer gaps and was quite surprised at the change in sound of the engine when the gaps were closed up - much, much less mechanical noise.... Particularly from the cam gear backlash(this beast hasn't had any tuning in this department yet....) As to whether performance is affected, not much, if at all.

I did see, on checking over before running yesterday, that he had used a bit of oil, about the same as previously, before the head was changed. Possibly I have a stuck oil wiper ring, which became "unstuck" with a good rattling from the back pressure induced detonating... Who knows? I will keep an eye on it and also change the fuel viscosity slightly - I am currently running between 40 and 50w fuel oil - the diesel knock is very slight - as I decrease the visco, the knock becomes more pronounced, and sooting becomes a little less... That might just "unstick" things.... Worth a try I suppose... WI helps an enormous amount, but it cannot cure everything...

Enough rambling from the old twat this side... Time to go play!!

Keep it spinning!!

Cheers
Ed

OMG... I just realized something... Now I understand why Trans World Airlines never offered Tea on their flights....Could you imagine the hostess pulling up with a trolley to your seat and saying: "Good day Sir...Can I offer you some T.W.A. Tea?"