Author Topic: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications  (Read 289445 times)

38ac

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #300 on: February 08, 2016, 05:03:12 PM »
It's junk in my book,,,
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

38ac

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #301 on: February 08, 2016, 05:08:01 PM »
  I was under the impression that a lot of injection systems while built by different companies. They tend to build under license a same/similar known proven design instead of re-inventing the wheel.
 

They are,, and they did.
I use Bosch elements, racks and delivery valves to repair C.A.V., Bryce, MICO and of coarse OEM Bosch pumps and injectors.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #302 on: February 12, 2016, 05:24:09 PM »
Hey Guys....

Alright, I confess... I am lazy.... but you all knew that anyway...

How to get away from oiling the valve train V1.....

I have a tiny bit of blow by on TM1, nothing serious, but enough to give a light oiling to the side of the engine block, enough to feel oily, darken the paintwork slightly after a 8 hr run, but that's about it...  Not having any old socks to use productively, I have cobbled a manifold together out of an old petrol filler neck from a VW beetle to redirect the few vapours there are into the opening for the injector in the rocker cover... May as well get the last bit of use out of them before they end up in the atmosphere .....

How's that for being a stingy bugger... Too mean to spend a teaspoon full of oil to keep things from squeaking.... Lol...

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
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EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #303 on: February 15, 2016, 09:35:18 AM »
Hi Guys,

A minor report back for those interested....

Oil pyroliser/boiler...

I installed a mini oil still on the first bend of TM1's exhaust - It consists of a mini "steel flask" with about 100-200ml capacity and a 10mm dia x 100mm long brass "wick" traveling down the center of the down section of exhaust, in the main exhaust gas flow. By and large, regardless of how deep it is lowered into the exhaust flow, there is just not quite enough heat to be collected by the primitive exchanger design. A better, more efficient exchanger would work, but not in the space confines I have available. The "hassle factor" for cleaning exhaust carbon off the outside and residue from the inside means that the unit has to be very simple and easy to strip/clean - this unfortunately also lends itself to inefficiencies as the wick and outer has to be smooth with no finning...

It does come quite close to vaporizing the oils, lighter fractions up to about top level diesel are boiled off after a while and have been collected en masse with parrafins and the like, but the slightly heavier oils fail to vaporize fully (efficiently?)... Temperature maxes out at about 250C or so, maybe 300 (so there are possibilities).... I will I think, relegate this little toy to "later on when I have more time" status for further playing... (Or until I brew up a batch of rotgut.... hmmm.... 2 tots of Ole Lister with a dash of soda please......)

Keep it cooking!!

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

Tom

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #304 on: February 15, 2016, 05:30:02 PM »
A vacuum will lower the temps needed.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

billswan

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #305 on: February 15, 2016, 06:43:31 PM »
great thinking TOM!!

If eddee had a vacuum pump hooked to the roid and also upped the load on the alternator so as to maximize exhaust temps it just might work.

Maybe use some of the power to preheat the oil.

The cleanup is going to be messy though.

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #306 on: February 16, 2016, 05:55:09 AM »
Hey Tom, Bill and Glort,

I have a vac pump or 3 plus etc but don't want to use them for this app... My main interest was to see if I could still or crack the oil on a "micro" basis using the simplest means possible... Exhaust gas is exiting at about 350 to 500C depending on load, but the setup I am trying out just doesn't have the balls to collect and scavenge quite enough of the available temp to boil the oil. I can go to a more elaborate exchanger, but the problems with cleaning fins etc become an issue that I don't want to get involved in.

It was worth a try, if for nothing else, an indicator of what is required should I decide to take it further...

Glort, I agree pretty much entirely with your summation and opinions, but I also do think that the exhaust gas heat scavenging could be useful on a micro basis for oil cracking.... It would be nice to throw gunk into the monster and know that the gunk is being turned into champagne while it runs... To clean out a small crock of crap after every run or three is a lot better than tearing down to do rings etc because of the wear... I would only be looking to still off about 2 to 3L per hour, at most about 5... This will take care of the running with a little extra for reserve... Viewed in that light, it might change your opinion of the process I am investigating...

For me, a WMO/WVO burner would be overkill presently, even a really small one... the only reason I would look at a burner now, would be to use on my oil cooking machine which is electrically operated and heated... I am, however, currently doing trials on fuel that is not de-watered and boiled pre storage... so far it looks reasonable, the only process I am using is cold filtering with a sock filter on one pass, with 24hr minimum settling pre usage.....This is a much lazier and less messy way for me, should the lifespan of the IP element etc match previous or come close to it, I would tend to stick to it... Time will tell though, I am keeping full records to make a comparison.... Of interest though, when diesel WMO or Petrol WMO is hot dewatered, they burn very similarly as fuel... When cold processed, ie filtered, settled and used, there seems to be a marked difference in performance between the two as a fuel from a carbon as well as a power POV...

Regarding fuel preheating - If it was arctic conditions, I think it would make a difference, but here where I am, the difference is minimal and probably more psychological than actual...

Glort, I like your burners, particularly the simplicity and ease of construction....one of the things I noticed on a few of your vids was the amount of back flame you were getting on the open tubes close to the burner nozzle and the "buzz bomb" rattle as it lights off... Have you tried a conical inlet to the burner tube? Kind of like the cup on a rocket engine... Just thinking out loud....

Cheerz
Ed

12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
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buickanddeere

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #307 on: February 16, 2016, 03:09:34 PM »
The NG, propane , butane etc liberated from the distillation process posses a explosion hazard.  It would be. Shame to loose all the btu
'S from those clean burning gasses.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 07:55:01 PM by buickanddeere »

Tom

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #308 on: February 16, 2016, 05:24:47 PM »
True on the explosion issue, but it can be burned as it is produced too. Perhaps some insulation or refractory cement would raise temps enough.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #309 on: February 17, 2016, 08:35:48 AM »
Hi Guys,

B&D: Very much agreed regarding the gas generation - Not a problem in this instance though - the area is WELL ventilated, no sumps or similar for accumulation of heavy gasses nor is there eave areas for the lighter gasses either, so it is pretty much impossible.... While the area is "enclosed", it has about 25% opening all round on 3 sides with plenty of turbulence created by some big spinning wheels....

Tom: The entire "crucible" is pretty much in the exhaust, with just the top bit with delivery pipe outside of the exhaust casing... I tried insulating the top with some fiber insulation - it did raise the temp a bit, but not enough.... The setup just doesn't have quite enough surface area to collect enough energy from the exhaust gas flow vs losses vs the volume of oil being processed in the bowl. I can make the bowl smaller, but it is already pretty minuscule at present, so that is not worthwhile. To increase the efficiency of energy collection I would have to increase the surface area of the outer of the bowl by adding fins, also not an option because carbon buildup would be a problem.... Kinda snookered!

As soon as I have finished doing the mods to TM2, I think I might just go the "GlortBurner" route to crack the gunk... Lets see what pans out... The mini-still, meanwhile, is about to be re-designed in stainless steel for distilled water production... There is plenty enough heat for that and DW is always handy to have around, particularly with my track record of projects.... If I don't stick a screwdriver through my hand or similar on each project, the thing wont work... It seems as if the level of blood loss is directly related to success of project.... Kinda surprised I still have all my appendages attached....  :embarassed:

Keep it cooking...

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #310 on: February 17, 2016, 02:27:27 PM »
Hey Glort,

You are not far wrong, I want to be able to crack just a little in excess of what I am using - The numbers do add up, even when I take the downstream exhaust gas energy and capture that(or part thereof) in the hot water exchanger. The problem I have, which is not insurmountable on a new build, but very difficult on a retrofit, is that of lack of space on the system as it now stands. A larger and more spacey exchanger looks like the way to go, I will look at allowing this space on the TM2 build when I get round to doing it....

Hot process for me is raising the temp to around 120C, cold is at STP, around 25C - with Petrol WMO and cold processing, there seems to be possibly a few more volatiles remaining, this allows the oil to burn a bit easier by the looks of it. When hot processed, these volatiles(Probably mostly RUG) get boiled off (around 90 to 95C if I remember correctly) leaving just the heavier oils behind....

Yep, it was the spray burners I was looking at... Take a trip to the local scrappies and see if you can find an old 4 into 1 from a big bike or 2-stroke exhaust from a small bike - They both have similar entry angles, 13 degrees seems to spring to mind... Might make an interesting 4-nozzle burner out of the big one.... 4 heat settings too!! Another thing that just struck me.... A nozzle off an old fire hose would make a nifty end for the burner "injector"... The angle in the inside lends itself to laminar flow and acceleration... Would reduce your "irregular feathering" of the fuel mix on the spray and might just give a marked improvement... Worth a try I reckon, would certainly be interesting... The nozzle size might be a bit problematic, but if it works big, you could always make a downsized version....(Or a flame thrower if you turned the air down a bit)....


Anyways...Enough rambling from my side... Time to do some more work...

Cheerz
Ed



12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #311 on: February 18, 2016, 08:26:33 AM »
Hey Glort,

The vapour capture wont be an easy one for my boiling tank as it stands, there are just too many vents to take care of...Maybe mark II later on perhaps? The lighter volatiles arent really a problem for me, I can always zap it up with an additive like RUG or similar should I need... The water has been my main concern in the past...

I am looking at stilling the oil and condensing to try and remove as many non liquid contaminants as I can - Filters/IP elements and the like cost in the long run... Water can be separated quite easily after boiling off. One of the main reasons I want to still the gunk off is to see if the product still is high in ash content, I think it would reduce dramatically.... Being the lazy ass that I am, the fewer bits I can do to the oil, the better for me!...

Aha! 2 volt Light globe.... Lead Acid cell is 2 volts isn't it? That puts you in your metallic years..(Silver in the hair, gold in the teeth and lead in the ass..) ... Now, that also leads me to believe you were from the 60's.... A good bit of acid around then...Lol

We got one mother of a thunderstorm approaching here now, I better get offline and unplug network cables....

Keep it sparking!!

Cheers
Ed

12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #312 on: February 20, 2016, 07:01:19 AM »
Hi Guys,

On another note....

I have been taking note of a peculiarity lately... Maybe its just imagination, maybe it is happening to others as well..

I run TM1 for between 3 and 7 hour shifts on a daily basis, what I have noticed is that for the first 2 or slightly more hours, he makes good power and holds voltages well.... anytime thereafter, he gets a bit lazy and needs a bit of water down the snout to clean up the rings and clear up a bit of blow by/smokey exhaust... after that, away he goes for the rest of the run, generally with no problems regardless of whether its another 4 to 5 or more hours even...

Now, here's the interesting bit... if I run him for short runs during the day, up to 2 or so hours at a stretch, the carboning doesnt seem to be a problem....

Ideas? Anybody else have similar?


Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

buickanddeere

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #313 on: February 20, 2016, 08:37:09 PM »
  if old bessy is carboning up that quick. There is something fundamentally amiss.
  The fuel injection should be a finer mist via higher pressure, maybe advanced sooner and using warmer fuel. The combustion chamber temperature at the time of injection should be hotter. All the metal surfaces exposed to combustion should be hotter. 

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #314 on: February 20, 2016, 09:10:09 PM »
Hi B&D,

I think you have hit the nail on the head with the atomisation remark... the tip on this injector is a tad suspect, pressure is OK, but I am sure the hole is a bit on the worn side... Not surprising, its got quite a few hours on sump gunk through it... I have got another tip, I will pop it in when I get a chance and see if it improves matters.... Also, this batch of oil has not been heated above 100C, so it might, in fact will, have a bit of water in it in suspension... That just complicates matters of course...

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!