Author Topic: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications  (Read 291445 times)

EdDee

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Hey Brian,

I have considered cracking plastics back to components, but that's a little too much hassle for me at this stage, also, there is not much in the line of 'clean' waste plastic available to me, the local recyclers have that side pretty much tied up.... the water defs does work a treat, I was reminded of that again today while I was messing around with TM1 and doing some more mods and stuff... the exhaust port is basically clean, only light soot is present, this is effectively untouched, as are both inlet and exhaust valve... no need to grind or decarbon ports,they look like they have only had a brief 'factory' run.... and that's 1600+ hrs actually...

I didn't get too much done on TM today, the temp was hovering around 30+ C and as soon as I tried to do anything, my personal thermostat started to object.... all I accomplished was setting the squish to slightly above factory minimum of 1.75mm, ending up at 1.78mm... I reckon its close enough... NS squish difference is around .01 mm, so I am pretty happy with that too... the other thing I did was to rebush, accurately, the governor bell crank, and then get it lined up properly with the IP too... pics can be seen here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Governor Bellcrank .. if you look carefully, you can see that the sides of the bell crank have been accurised and the brass liner I pressed in is only just visible in the oil hole...

While I was at it, I put in a long overdue brass tappet spacer to line up the inlet rocker to the valve stem properly, and cut down the exhaust pushrod a few mm so the adjusters look a bit more even, not as lopsided as they were... purely cosmetic...

Aah... also finished the governor spring assy  off properly, also cosmetic...just needs to be painted up, Pics here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Governor Mods

Then, for shits and giggles, I made up another dipstick housing, the original I made up has been put on TM2, I didn't feel like draining oil just to change it back... Pic available here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Dipstick Mods

Come to think of it, maybe it wasnt such a quiet day after all! No wonder I feel buggered.....

Again I start getting verbal diarrhea.... Time to climb back in my box and shut up....

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
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EdDee

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Hey Guys,

Another short, or maybe not so short post on what's happening with TM1 while he is on the slab....

The fuel changeover valves have been neatened up and incorporated with a fixed, shake proof, timing pointer.... Changeover valves: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Fuel Changeover Assy/
Timing Indicator: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Timing Pointer (It is marginally adjustable, so it can be zeroed to the timing marks I put on the flywheel previously...)

The dipstick is completed, now I just need to mark the high and low tide marks... http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Dipstick Mods/

The external CBW's are made and fitted, the engine was a total of 2400g under balanced at crank throw radius, for 50% balancing, the weights are just a tad on the high side of 600g each, 4x, fitted to BDC throw... at a radius of 70mm, or as close as I could get to it without major surgery... They are made up of stainless bar, 50mm dia, 42mm long, held in place with a 8mm cap head screw 50mm long... Should they be over or under weight, they can easily be removed for adjustment... Currently, they are a total of 70g overweight, but I don't think that this will make an enormous difference... The square weights bolted close to the rim are to get the flywheels in balance... FWIW.... http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/External CBW/ ... If things work out as planned, TM should be as smooth as it can be throughout the rev range now...(or as bouncy.....Oops....)

Here if a pic of the tappet shim that I installed yesterday... 2.4mm thick to bring things a bit closer to center on the inlet side...http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Tappet Shim/

If all goes according to plan, tomorrow I will be able to do a final crank and fuel system flushout, mount the oil pickup and strainer, set the injection timing and get the beast ready to mount ... Hold thumbs...

I am very interested to see the result of the balance work I have done, anybody have any forecasts as to what the outcome will be?

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed

PS... any comments would be greatly appreciated...
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 05:44:47 PM by EdDee »
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Tom

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Hey EdDee, If you post your images this way the pics will show and not require people to click a couple of links to see them. You click the image tag and put the full link to the file between the tags.

Tom

« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 08:02:54 PM by Tom »
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

EdDee

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Hey Tom,

Noted!

There is a reason for me posting a source link though... There are a couple of gents that are following this page that have a less than average link to the internet, and some that are using cellular comms with associated high costs for large picture transfers... I post the links to give the reader a choice as to whether they want to download the pics to keep costs down and speeds up.... Hence not "inlining" the images....

A further reason for posting server links is that as I take more pics and add them to the server folders, the links can remain the same but the content will change and append...

I realise that I can rescale the pics and make them smaller in physical size and data size, but I must admit, I am a bit lazy... I am snapping a few pics on my cel while I am working on the beast and as soon as I take a break, I upload them to the server without retouching them... that allows for a lot less PC/tablet button pressing for me....

If I am treading on toes by doing it this way, please slap me around the ear repeatedly until I take note and change my ways!

Keep on clicking...

Regds
Ed
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 08:28:13 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
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Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
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EdDee

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Hey guys,

Another progress update...

Crankcase has had a final washout, as clean as I can get it.... The only reason that I can find at the moment to strip the coating off the inside of the case and sump is to make mopping out a bit easier and quicker.... The coating is rough, probably a 50% gravel and 50% paint... Lol...

The oil lines have been cleaned, flushed and reinstalled, no hiccups! ... A small mod I did on the RHS feed pipe(if viewed from the large door side of the engine) was to twist the standpipe considerably... it is now sitting at about 45 degrees, aimed towards the rhs trb cage and towards the door and oil thrower ring , hitting it relatively central in its path... a worthwhile change from the original, unfortunately I didn't have a clean hand by this stage to grab the cel and take a few snaps....

The dipstick now has 3 "tide" marks, absolute max, with the oil just touching the threads of the big end bolts, low tide is when the oil is at  lowest weir level, and a second very low mark - this is when the oil level is just above the top of the oil strainer... Bear in mind, the oil strainer I am using is about 2" diameter, about an inch above the apron floor... Way oversized compared to the original.. this oil strainer is also somewhat finer than the original, around .2 to .3 mm mesh opening size... Originally it was a pickup strainer from a hydraulic tank....

The timing has now been set at a nominal 20 degrees btdc and all seems well too...(Besides a few minor leaks in the fuel pipe to be sorted)

Hopefully, if the weather holds out, I will mount the beast back in its chassis tomorrow and spin it up!

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
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mike90045

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Here if a pic of the tappet shim that I installed yesterday... 2.4mm thick to bring things a bit closer to center on the inlet side...

I think I would call that a Rocker Arm ?  Don't the tappets ride on a cam, and lift the pushrods ?
I think I have to do that mod to my rockers, they have the same misalignment you corrected with that shim/ washer.

EdDee

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Hey Mike...

Another name from another part of the world.... ie 'Tappet Cover' ... The bit that rides on the cam is the 'follower', unless its an ohc and called a 'bucket tappet' ...

Yours is probs a better term, tappet refers more to the bit at the end of the rocker arm that presses on the valve.... my bad!

As to whether its worth doing the mod, it probably is, but there have been no major wear on the guides as yet, 1600 hrs... I just did it because it was so simple and quick to do.... Probs a bit overboard to make out of brass, a steel 16 mm washer would work just as well I reckon....

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 06:38:29 AM by EdDee »
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EdDee

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Hi guys,

A bucket of sweat later, 30 degree in the shade, working(or playing) in the direct sun..... and TM1 is back in its chassis and spinning on...

Let's see...... it sounds simple, 8 bolts, connect a few rubber hoses, fill it with water... a good few hours later it still sounds simple, just tiring...

What have I found out today? .....? .....?

50% balance is not suitable for my setup.... at 50%, the lateral movement is too much, for my liking anyway... the 'sled on wheels' developed about a 1/8 to 1/4" to and fro movement which will mess with my pipe couplings to the heat store under the building a bit too much I reckon.... I dropped it to 300g under balanced, by removing the extenal cb weights completely and the rocking disappeared completely, but TM became a little bouncy... Nowhere near what I had before I balanced the flywheels, but still a little too much for my liking..., I then installed 1200g of cbw's and things quietened down dramatically... This is how he is running now...

This machine was a jumper, thumper, I'll tempered beast that would break 8mm black chains at a whim... just because he could! Bear in mind, the entire engine, gen head, radiator, exhaust with aftercooler and cooling system, weighs in at a guestimate of around 1300 or more kg...  Now to have a 3000lb angry whirling dervish on your hands can be quite entertaining.... Especially if it breaks its restraints(4 x 8mm chains) and decide it wants to leave your premises... But, since the balance job on the flywheels, even without the cbw's, he is meek and mild mannered.... I would go so far as to say 'tame' even.... The balance job has definitely been the best thing I could have done! Now, to put it all in perspective, working from memory here, the balance tags were around 120g.... that is the best used 120g of steel on the entire setup!

With the 1200g of CBS's installed, he is only 500g balanced against oscillating mass... the crank and big end rotary masses worked out at 700 g under balanced, so only the remaining 500 g of the cbw's are going towards oscillation mass balancing, and it works a treat! At a rough guess this puts his balance % at around 20% or so.... Rpm is still at 750....

With TM now running smoother, I shortened the radiator stand by just under 300mm and cut the piping accordingly, thermo syphoning is still working well... My plan is to install the last compononent(until I think of some other dangly bit) tomorrow... It is a heat exchanger on the radiator inlet... Currently, as timed today, TM heats up the heat store of around 300l water to a usable level for baths and showers in around 2.5 hours... As I am looking at getting as much usable energy out of the fuel that I can, hopefully the heatex will speed things up just a wee bit more.... Time will tell!

The crankcase on TM is warming up faster and hotter than previously, I am running a much more vigorous splash system than before... I suspect that the oil is getting into way more hot zones than previous..... hopefully its not a friction issue that I have overlooked....

Here are some pics of TM on the gibbet and in place while I still had energy to press the shutter button...http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Reinstall 20151230

And just for the record, here are pics of the inlet and exhaust ports after1600+ hrs of running... they are as is, no decarboning or brushing has been done on them whatsoever, all thanks to the basic WI system I am using..http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Head Ports 1600hrs

Let's see what breaks tomorrow.... if you expect the worst, every day without a failure becomes a good day!!

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 08:51:17 PM by EdDee »
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mike90045

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......... hopefully its not a friction issue that I have overlooked..........

If it was friction, you likely would not be able to crank by hand, getting enough friction to heat things, So my bet is on the oil picking up heat from the cyl walls.
With the decompression off, how does it coast ?

Also, with your large oil dipper, hope it's threads stand up to the impact of hitting the oil.

EdDee

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Hi Mike,

He coasts fine, no knocks or grinds when under compression or with the cr engaged... He is slightly harder to turn over than before, I put it down to tight rings, plus the extra one... spooling down takes about the same time as before, no major differences per se..

As to the oil dipper, I went up a size or two on the shank and retapped the big end cap to suit after enlarging it... can't remember now, but it was around 5/16 or 3/8 NF ... drill size was around 9.5 mm or thereabouts.... it should be strong enough....

At this stage the jury is still out about the extra, double stacked ring... the additional friction from the ring wil definitely take away a bit of power at the crank, as to how much, I am unsure as yet, but there is a difference at the moment.... Too early to tell, need the rings to bed in first to see what the final power out will be....

I ran it a good few hours yesterday, probs around 5 to 6 or so, will check the hour meter and log it later..... What do u reckon is a reasonable run in time?

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed

12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
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Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
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38ac

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Correcting the top ring groove is a very important yet often overlooked repair when reusing a piston.  With economical price and easily sourced Indian pistons that is the route of choice but when a piston is not available widening and shimming is indeed a good fix. Some suggestions for next time. I would not double the original ring width if worn that bad  and piston is available but that is just me. If an unavailable piston was worn so bad as to need that kind of machine work I would use a ring that was  undersized or make a ring that hugged the piston instead of running the extra on the cylinder wall.  For lessor wear conditions we often machine the groove and use the scraper rings from three piece oil rings for shims or they are available from stock from Hastings ( the shim always goes on top by the way ;)) In severe cases we have stacked top rings but of narrower cross section than OEM thus not doubling the groove width.

Run in time varies a lot, depending on the condition of the resused parts, the quality of rings and type, cylinder surface prep, engine loading,oil type and likely others that didnt come to mind. Everything being in good order run in time is very brief. Personally I have never run into an engine that took more than a few hours to run in and ended up EVER being exactly right. Good enough maybe,but not right. Others have experainced different.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 12:03:21 PM by 38ac »
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

38ac

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goof up, sorry
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

EdDee

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Hi 38ac (and the rest of the clan too!)

I did indeed think and consider just top shimming the top piston ring, but I am trying something a little different... This baby burns WMO almost exclusively, one major wear aspect related to this is the top ring and groove... I am using the old top that was quite widely gapped as a sacrificial cleaner ring, with the new top ring inserted just below it in the same widened groove as the actual compression ring... just an experiment to see how it affects the wear et al.... the gaps are 180 apart to keep the abrasives above if possible....

There is also the possibility of cutting a new groove on these pistons about 1/4" above the existing top ring groove, I think there is enough meat there to do it...

A bit of what I got up to today:

Went to the workshop  around 9am... and didn't quite get there.... ended up fighting bush fires till after lunch...35C in the shade, and there I was chasing 300m of flame front to keep it away from the house and the paintball range... was definitely arson, but in my part of the world the local populace feel nothing for setting grass fires whenever they feel like it, and nothing if anything at all, happens to them if they are reported for doing it.... Even phoned the fire brigade, after 5 hours we managed to get it out, still no fire brigade.... wonderful place this...

Then, after a nice cold shower under the hose pipe I got a chance to install the heat exchanger I made up a few months back... and got a chance to plumb it into the hot water system.... pics here(please excuse the unpainted and partially primed finish, I was kinda busy today) http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Coolant Heatex 20151231

It seems to work quite well, input vs output temp is about 3 to 4 degrees up, maybe a little less, this might not seem much, but it is at 2 bar full flow from a .37 kw electrical pump, so the water is whipping through there quite fast to say the least...  the temp of the coolant is also buffered somewhat too....

It looks like I am going to have to pop the head off and do a quick valve job... the exhaust valve isn't sealing properly for some reason, no major pains, its 700 hrs overdue for a head service anyway....

Enough rambling, yet again....

And, of course, the mandatory and heartiest "Happy New Year"...... to all ye learned fellows out there!

Keep the goodwill flowing...

Regds
Ed

PS...It will be interesting to see how quickly the heat reservoir warms up now...
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 12:56:38 AM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO
« Reply #208 on: January 01, 2016, 06:55:22 PM »
Hi Guys,

Another update to the TM scene....

Popped the lid off the beast today, was expecting the worst regarding the valves and wasn't disappointed...Lol...

Here are some pics of the valve seats before and after... This should have been an easter job, it was a resurrection, not a repair...

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Valves and Seats 1700hrs 20160101

The inlet valve was fine, no pitting, no major leak spots evident, no corrosion, justnot quite seating 100%, a quick lap with fine valve grinding paste and a nice even contact surface presented itself... The contact area is a tad wide for my liking,around the 3mm mark, I would have preferred a little under 2mm but I wasn't prepared to recut the valve face at this stage...

The exhaust valve and seat on the other hand, was, euphemistically speaking, 'a little worse for wear' .... I am surprised that TM was putting out power, let alone running!

The seat had pitting in excess of .5mm deep, the valve face was pitted likewise...

I refaced the valve at 55/45/35 angles, the 45 being the mating surface.... the valve face is so soft, I simply cut it in the lathe with a HSS tool bit, and not a very sharp one at that.... It appears from the line up of the head face of the valve(around .5mm runout) that our Indian friends had a bent valve and ground it straight... this excessive face grinding has gone right through the case hardening of the valve, or, if it was an induction hardened head, the machining/face grinding has been done sans coolant and caused the sealing face of the valve to soften dramatically.... not a good thing indeed... on my next trip to the specialists, I see a cut and reseat with a decent quality valve coming up....

I expected seat and face damage from the fuel being run, particularly on the exhaust side of things, but not to this degree...(More on this later)

I have managed to do a 'farm style' resurrection, here is how you can do it if you are in a bind:

True up the face of the valve using a lathe or whatever means you have at your disposal... When really stuck, in an emergency, I have used a large drill mounted in a vice or clamp to turn the valve by its stem. Support the top end of the valve stem between two wooden bearing blocks to get it to run as true as possible... while the valve is turning, CAREFULLY use a dremel tool or small grinder to recut the face... Not an ideal way to do the job,but it can be done... In this instance, the soft head was an easy thing to recut in the lathe...

Once you have trued up the valve head as best you can, insert it into the cylinder head and use it, with lots of grinding paste, to recut the seat to match....

After you have a reasonably clean face in the head to work with, you need to recut the valve face again... Try to take as little off the cylinder head as is possible, less is more!

Recut the valve with a slightly steeper angle, 2 or 3 degrees is fine, and relap the valve with fine paste in the head until you have around 2mm of contact width all the way round.... Again, less is more! Too wide a seat, and the chances of carbon deposits fouling the faces increase, too narrow, and the valve can overheat as there is insufficient contact area to draw away the heat to the cylinder head... Be careful of too much paste, you don't want any getting between the stem and the valve guide....

Once all  is lapped in, a good wash with parrafin and you are ready to go!

Now, regarding the erosion that is evident, here is what I surmise.....

The inlet valve and seat is in good clean condition, this leads me to believe that the air entering the inlet is clean and of reasonable quality. The water entering along with the air, is having little impact if any either, as there is no corrosion evident, so whatever is occurring is post ignition, or compression...

The exhaust valve is showing effectively all of the beating, so my logic tells me that this is either temperature, combustion by product or steam erosion. I think we can discount stem and temperature by and large, there is not enough of either present I don't think to do this level of damage... This leaves combustion by products... (it cannot be fuel in its liquid or atomised state that is causing it, as there is little to no wear evident on the IP or injector...)

The cylinder upper sections support this theory by and large, but the variables are slightly different, the common factor being combustion residue.

I am guessing, by the wear evident, that the erosion on the exhaust valve face and seat is due to a 'sandblasting' type effect by the residue travelling at high speed as it exits through the valve opening... there is little difference in wear around the entire seat and valve face either, it is fairly even in damage. Deeper into the port, on the botton of the valve guide, there is little to no damage either from a 'blasting' effect, the guide bottom is still nice and square, little bevelling evident either.

This again, leads me to surmise that the particles doing the wear, have to be extremely small, and travelling at an extremely high speed, such as when the pressure is at maximum for a valve open event... ie as the valve open event occurs... as soon as these particles slow down, they lose sufficient of their kinetic energy to do damage, hence the lack of damage on the face of the valve stem guide.., the gas has already started to slow at this point, and is no longer 'jetting' through a narrow opening.... If somebody has a better idea or explanation, feel free to express it, any theories are interesting to me! (Of course, it could also just be a crappy exhaust valve that is so soft it is being impregnated by clamped particles and wearing the faces out...)

If I think of any other bits and bobs I noticed, I will edit this post and update it....

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 07:09:15 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
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carlb23

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO
« Reply #209 on: January 01, 2016, 08:24:08 PM »
I am surprised that you didn't go trough the head when you had it apart since you had to wait for the new crank anyway.