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Author Topic: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications  (Read 289659 times)

EdDee

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2015, 06:49:14 PM »
Hi Guys,

Another day done, a few more miles travelled on the Lister journey...

Yesterday afternoon quite late, I received my replacement cylinder head gasket... Awesome! (Or so I thought...)

On closer inspection I found that while the outer sizes of the gasket seemed to match my roid, the inner bore diameter of the gasket seemed, well, a little bit on the small side from what I was expecting... Not much, mind you, just a few millimeters... (remember, at this point in time, the roid was still running with a rather sickly sludge trying to climb out of the radiator header tank, fuel oil vapours were taking a nice short cut, bugger the exhaust, straight to the cooling system! I hadn't stripped it down yet, I am using it for daily power and hot water...)

Well, to make a short story long, one quick call to the importer later and I had his personal assurance that the gasket was spot on... He even went to his racks and pulled another one out and measured it while I was on the phone... It matched mine to a tee....

Right, plan of action was made... wait for the weather to clear, finish fixing a couple of single cycle hand engines.... (You do of course know what they are, don't you?) ... Clear the decks of the usual paperwork ... Rip the lid off Lizzie... Pop her back together... Wind her up, and... of course, all will go smoothly... been here 100s of times before..... Shouldn't take more than an hour or so..... Right... supper is ready, I will finish this off in a mo! ....

Stewed chicken..... Brilliant!

..... ...... ....

Well, suffice it to say, started the job at about 13h00.... finished it about 20h00.... 7hrs is a "bit" long to loosen a few nuts and bolts....

The damn gasket was WRONG!!!!

In the 7hrs, I managed to get the head off, confirm the gasket was a cock up, scan and touch up a layout of the original gasket, email it to a company down the road, get it laser cut out of 1.2mm aluminium, install it and discover some coolant leaks, remove it and coat the galleries with a silicon based sealer, reinstall it and test, start the green biaatch up..... All running... eventually!

Tomorrow I will speak to the lads that cut this gasket for me and get a few cut in a slightly thinner sheet... this one is 1.2mm aluminium, I am going to try 0.6 as well... the liner step is a wee bit large on my roid, so I am thinking of making an ali single sided composite with a paper lower to try and get away from this rubber goo... Anybody have any thoughts about this? (0.6mm to pump up the compression ratio a bit while I am at it...)

I will also have a chat to the suppliers of the OEM parts.... Seeing that foul language and rude gestures aren't tolerated on this board, I don't think I will be able to give an account of the conversation that will take place.....

The look around the innards was quite interesting while I had the lid off... a little black carbon, not much. A little crusty white deposit, and not too much of that either... what was interesting was the ridge that has developed, it is about .1mm maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less, at the height where the top ring stops... This is after running a sh!tload of really crappy sump gunk as fuel for well over 1000hrs now.. Anybody with comments, please chip in with the "I told you so" now please...Lol... But seriously though, after 1000hrs or more of runtime, what wear has been experienced on our welfare listers on WVO, WMO or DINO? Please chime in and give me a couple of numbers so I can judge the performance of mine...

There are some photos on http://WWW.warriorpaintball.co.za/private of the head removal and what was found... Including a nasty little ding in the head, right in the middle of where the high pressure ring of the headgasket seats... So far this evening, there has been no blow by on the gasket, coolant is holding its level and all seems peachy, but its only run about 3hrs now... Hold thumbs!

The governor mod is working brilliantly so far... only very little rev change between  no and full load, less than 3hz estimated, only thing that shows loading is the exhaust tone deepens as she starts to pull, hopefully I have got at least one thing right over the last couple of days!

Tomorrows plans.... if all holds together overnight .. a cup full of washing powder into the radiator to break down  the oil slick and clean it up, bring it to temp and then drain it out... I am not running glycol in it now... let the settled glycol out of Lizzie rid itself of the floating muck and reinstall it in the cooling system... What could possibly go wrong? .... oops... jinxed... better not push my luck too far... enough said!

Ah yes... Suggestions please... Let's give this thread a more meaningful title..... Any ideas?

Cheers... keep the wheels spinning...
Ed
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 08:56:11 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2015, 12:29:06 PM »
Hi Guys,

A bit of a follow up.... (Is anybody reading this BTW? Kinda feel like I am talking to the hills here....LOL)

Cleaned and flushed the cooling system with a dose of good old washing powder(Pre-Dissolved of Course)..

All is well, things are cleaning up nicely, no more short circuits for fuel oil found.... Also, there are no coolant leaks around the head whatsoever...

Now that the governor is nicely sorted out, I decided to replace the IP element. I have replaced it with an element that is 8mm dia instead of 10mm as per the original - For anybody interested in the specs see below:

Opex 12/1 Single Cylinder - Element – 10mm Dia in 034 pump

Piston Numbers–    L3B
                                323
Sleeve Number-           308

Piston - Spiral Down from Crown to RHS of Piston (Crown Up)
Piston AOL = 78.4mm

Sleeve AOL = 50.4mm
Sleeve Shank Dia = 13.97mm
Sleeve Head = 16.75dia x 16.25Long

I have measured a load of up to 18A (I am aiming at 20A Max average) and at this load the old crate is starting to smoke a bit (I must still pull and clean the injector tip and check for carbon on the tip as I didn't do it while I was doing the head gasket, time was short!!)

Performance seems smoother with the new element, I think that with the worn element, the rack had to be a little further open to get the same power, bearing in mind that the piston/sleeve was worn war past nominally usable by a bit of REALLY BAD pump diesel with water contaminant mix in its first days in operation...

My logic in this seems to say that the more the rack is open, the later the diesel injection event stops per stroke. (Not that this has anything to do with it but...)

If the pump wear is borderline, as the viscosity of the fuel changes, the advance on the timing changes erratically. This is caused by the fuel squeezing past the side of the piston possibly until enough resistance is encountered to pop the injector. The slower the engine runs, the more slip on the fuel event, the more retarded the injection event. As the engine speeds up, less time for slip, more advanced injection.

Spill timing this thing was impossible with the old element - it was so worn that on slow hand flywheel turning, there was little or no flow through the IP non-return valve with dino... To get it to perform reasonably, I had to set the timing by ear listening to the knock... Got it quite close BTW, its around 21deg when I checked it quickly after the new element was installed.....

What I have found is that with the smaller element, (36% Area Reduction between original and new), power seems to be there as required, but, above all, there is less "intermittent" diesel knock - this was noticed immediately on startup. Originally, there was a constant diesel knock, not bad, but every maybe 10th or 20th rev there was a somewhat louder knock.... This has now disappeared!! (I don't see this as being due to the smaller element, but by a un-buggered one!!) What I have noticed is that the governor does not open the rack fully, there is still about 3 to 4mm of travel unused....Hmm... I will have to attend to that I reckon....

I ran Lizzie up at about 5 to 600RPM manually controlled and she runs absolutely beautifully!! So much so, that I am looking to down rate her a bit further still... It will be on a dual governor spring/belt/pulley system that can be changed quickly and easily - If all goes well it should be a quick "UnClip/Clip/Belt Off/Belt on" scenario to change her kW rating.... If I was "The Flash" I could probably do it with the engine running!!

For the lower power rating, I am adding a smaller pulley outboard of the large pulley on the genhead, there should be enough space on the shaft to do it... I will take some pics of the dual governor setting when I do it....If it all works out, it should be KISS personified!! The current pulley on the genhead is around 300mm dia, the belt runs on the outside of the flywheel(About 595mm dia at around 750RPM). I am looking at a pulley around 200 to 220mm diameter as an addition for the genhead, lowering the engine speed to around 550RPM or so. Any guesses as to what the max power delivery at the electrical plug will be at this ratio?

Anyways, Enough rambling from me.... Time to go play with toys.... I love my work!!

Cheerz....
Ed

12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

TxBlacksmith

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2015, 03:06:27 PM »
Reading every word...I try to learn something every day....don't always succeed...but I try  ???

EdDee

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2015, 06:17:30 PM »
Hey TxBs... where ya based....?
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

dax021

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2015, 06:41:28 PM »
Also reading and trying to learn something.  Finally got my SR2 back today, so tomorrow is wiring up day, then let the fun begin

TxBlacksmith

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2015, 07:03:18 PM »
I'm in N central Texas,  near DFW metro-mess...at least for a few more months, until I hopefully finally  ::) get to retire
from the Fire Service..... :laugh:

EdDee

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2015, 07:56:06 PM »
Hey Dax, where u based?

Hope the wiring goes well, I am still not finished with mine... Its hooked up to the property, but the changeover is manual... Every time I want to run on gen, I have to start then switch over manually... the switch over is becoming a pain in the ass... I have a couple of 100A breakers that I might just wire up to pull in automatically, saves all the hassle of running around... I guess its a bit lazy, but whatever...

My wiring is dead simple, one main circuit breaker in the gen head, one sub breaker on the wall box, one analogue ammeter and one analogue voltmeter... Simple works for me... I am tired of bit bashing and writing machine code... not worth it for a single installation... Besides, the tough time I put this thing thru would have wrecked any sensitive PC/PLC controls by now.... come to think of it, has anybody actually seen a PLC outlast a lister?

Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2015, 08:05:30 PM »
Hey TxBs,

A good mate of mine was in the fire service this side of the world, also retired now, actually got boarded for medical reasons, lungs packing up.... Hope your innards are still OK and u can get a few more miles out of the chassis!

Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

Tom

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #68 on: November 05, 2015, 08:36:14 PM »
Hey Dax, where u based?

Hope the wiring goes well, I am still not finished with mine... Its hooked up to the property, but the changeover is manual... Every time I want to run on gen, I have to start then switch over manually... the switch over is becoming a pain in the ass... I have a couple of 100A breakers that I might just wire up to pull in automatically, saves all the hassle of running around... I guess its a bit lazy, but whatever...

My wiring is dead simple, one main circuit breaker in the gen head, one sub breaker on the wall box, one analogue ammeter and one analogue voltmeter... Simple works for me... I am tired of bit bashing and writing machine code... not worth it for a single installation... Besides, the tough time I put this thing thru would have wrecked any sensitive PC/PLC controls by now.... come to think of it, has anybody actually seen a PLC outlast a lister?

Ed

Used to work on a Westinghouse PLC from 1984, resurrected it from almost dead by finding some unlocked programming software. It was optically coupled to everything and that is the only reason it never fried, but the optical interface boards fryed frequently.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

TxBlacksmith

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #69 on: November 05, 2015, 11:42:27 PM »
Thanks Ed, still a few miles left in me I hope, chassis is a bit worse for the wear. 
I got a building dropped on me when I was 22yrs...long time ago, and the problems didn't show up for years...
but I am squeaking by...looking forward to moving to the country, tinkering with the Dursley,  etc.
I am hoping to find a good sized engine to rebuild, to power a full line shaft set up for my Blacksmith shop.
That and drinking some fine single malt by the campfire... :angel:

EdDee

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #70 on: November 06, 2015, 11:03:14 AM »
Hey Tom,

Dont know that PLC .... I used Siemens and later LG... The LG was quite cheap and powerful too... nice expandability as well... Still got one lying around here somewhere... must fire it up some time and see if it still works... otherwise it goes into the "Target" drum for when I play with the single stroke hand engines... Good fun was writing machine code, assembler, for the 8051 micro's... built quite a few data collection units for one task or another... I probs wont even know where to start if I hit the keyboard again... Lol... Use it or Lose it is a very apt description!!

Regds
Ed

 
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #71 on: November 06, 2015, 11:13:43 AM »
Hey TxBs,

Bummer about the building drop.... At least you've made it this far and still not retired, what are you 45+?...

Awesome stuff for the Blacksmith shop... I have a building here, well parts of one anyway, that I have been reserving for my housemate to set up as a BSShop... quite a co-incidence!! I would like to hear what you have in mind to produce in the shop, equestrian tidbits or other? (Personally I would love to watch, firsthand, someone forge and make a Samurai sword or a damascan barrel for a shotgun....)

What size engine are you looking for in particular? I have put the feelers out for some listers this morning, possibly may come in with some good leads - the old farms around here all know a single cylinder stationery engine as a Lister - A mate picked up a Blackstone some while back thru one of these leads. Around here, there are supposedly quite a few in barns that are falling to disrepair, the original owners put them in before power was available nationally and when power came available, they were shutdown and never used again....

As to the Single Malt and the campfire, you are welcome to it, you deserve the finer things and pleasantries in life!! (I am a peasant and drink Rum&Coke while partying till late!!)

Regds
Ed
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 11:16:42 AM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

TxBlacksmith

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Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
« Reply #72 on: November 06, 2015, 01:47:35 PM »
Ed..    I became a professional firefighter at 19,  I am 56 now...my how time flies  :laugh:
As to the blacksmith shop, I guess I would ultimately love a true Lister twin for the lineshaft power,
but i know how rare those are here in the states.  I have a line on a 6HP 1916 Witte engine that was used for
pumping water at a railroad tower out in the country, it is in decent shape, but missing the carb.
I am restoring a 1917 Little Giant power hammer, and know where to find a drill press and grinder that are lineshaft driven.
I plan on producing a small line of higher end kitchen knives and woodworking chisels, forged in the japanese
tradition.  I am not wanting to have to work all the time, or make a lot of money, just enough to support my hobby
and maybe a little extra on the side.  I am also a historical reenactor, I cover the time period from 1740 to 1850, depending on the event.
I will be continuing to forge colonial period ironwork for the camp, as well as the nicer things for the home.
I am a peasant as well, my wife gives me 1 bottle of really nice single malt each year for Christmas, and i maybe buy 1 more myself...
So I sip it neat, very slowly like the true wondrous nectar it is! ;D  Most of the time I am a sour mash whiskey drinker, neat or on the rocks.  That
I can afford to drink as needed  :D

Tom

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Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
« Reply #73 on: November 06, 2015, 05:32:36 PM »
The Westinghouse plc is an industrial system with ladder logic programming. When I arrived there was an old Compac lunch box portable that was used for programming it, but the one and only copy protected 5.25" floppy disk was bad. I found an unprotected copy for sale on the net and we were back in business. Most of my PLC stuff has been on Rockwell systems which are very expensive stuff that will last for years.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
« Reply #74 on: November 06, 2015, 05:38:24 PM »
Hi TxBs,

We r about the same age, give or take a year... Snap!

Send a pic of the hammer if u can, sounds cool! I have an old blacksmiths post drill lying in my basement workshop strangely enough... I think it is capable of being line shaft driven as well as hand, but doesn't have an onboard clutch... I think it used a slack leather round belt and a jockey pulley...

If u can get the steel formulation and temps right to match the Jap  traditional steels, they will last generations to come! Nice stuff! A hobby that can pay its way and buy the odd beer is always good to go... Just don't lose the hobby aspect, as soon as it becomes work, it sours it...

Historical re enactor... way cool!! I collect guns and stuff, have a few muzzle loaders from round that time and more than a few replica cap and ball six shooters, absolutely love them! Militaria is fascinating to me, as a new bachelor, I have put a lot of my toys up on the walls, a total man-cave... Lol... No woman could put up with my sh!t full time I reckon....  1740 to 1850.... Hmm.... lots a cutlery, old flintlocks, muzzle loading shotguns... the first of the colt revolvers...  muzzle loading cannons ... damn I could enjoy that.... what other ironwork are u gonna forge?


Here's to all us commoners out there! Rock on! ...

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!