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Author Topic: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications  (Read 167575 times)

glort

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #945 on: May 13, 2019, 03:52:36 AM »

Thanks Bruce, I hadn't considered this.

On reflection things are VERY dry here. Winter is also the driest season. ATM I am seeing Cracking in the brick work of the house and the rear verandah has bad cracks due to the ground drying out so much.  Really could use a lot of rain here, Again.

I will look up humidity rates and see what they are during winter.  Do you know if there is an " Ideal" humidity rate to have a home?
Humidity here atm is 51% and it's 21o C outside.
My Mrs and daughter have been complaining the Ducted AC is Drying the air too much at night. Of Course trying to explain it can't in heating mode falls on deaf ears.

The reason I went to the rocks for storage heating was I had concerns about the humidity a water tank might give off. I figured it would have to be vented and a small vent pipe wouldn't make much difference but it was just another though that occurred.

I will consult my mate who has an industrial AC company and see what he says about some sort of dual Duct  that can have one airflow or the other or Mix the 2. I was going to talk to him about filtration for the incoming air because the problem I foresaw with pumping a lot of air in the place was filling it with dust.  My old place was bad for dust with soot,  brake and tyre particles or whatever from the main road. This place is no better from the dirt blowing in off the farms and pastures. At least that is probably not going to do us the harm the other did although may well have been done by now.

A mixing system may be able to be controlled by an arduino although I'll ask mate if there is some unit made for industrial purposes for the job.
I know he looks after a few hospitals and the operating rooms are very precisely controlled and does Data Centres and I'm pretty sure the data centres at least have to have a controlled humidity.

Being as dry as it normally is, maybe all I need to do is get a good Hygrometer and consult that a couple of times a day. :0)

Our other place was constantly mouldy despite all the desiccants and things we tried and I don't want to go down that road again!

glort

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #946 on: May 13, 2019, 04:02:03 AM »

Just looking at the humidity for the area, I see that in the next 48 hours the humidity is forecast to swing from 35% Humidity to 95% and it's not due to rain. Not as dry as I thought.  I did see a lot of dew on the lawn at sunrise this morning.  Another couple of weeks and it will probably be frost.

http://m.weatherzone.com.au/nsw/sydney/camden/next48hours

Looks Like some sort of Mixing or just reheating the majority of the indoor air might be something to put into place.
Thanks again for the tip Bruce.

BruceM

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #947 on: May 13, 2019, 04:56:18 AM »
If you get tired of dusting, the SpaceGuard whole house HEPA filter is worth looking into.  I used them on both my homes in the Phoenix area.  With the fan on low most of the time, dusting was a thing of the past.  They helped with allergies greatly also.  SpaceGuard media is pretty long lasting and quite cheap.  Like most HEPA filters they are spun polyester, but SpaceGuard has massive area due to it's 5+ inch deep pleats and are low enough resistance to air flow that no boost fan is needed.  I did the install on both- piece of cake.

Home Humidity is ideally 40-50%, the lower being better for winter to avoid sweating at and around windows in colder climates.  Moving air always makes you feel cooler and dryer, which is why forced air heating sucks.

Good thing electric floor heating was so expensive.  It's a great way to have a high EMF home unless the wiring is coaxial or otherwise run as a pair, preferably twisted for better self canceling.  Also, heating a concrete slab floor that's not insulated from the earth and stem wall is power bill masochism, so I assume your floor is on a crawlspace. 

The only way to have a warm floor, is to have a terribly badly insulated and leaky house, so that you must have a massive boiler and run the in-floor hydronic heating system all the time.  In a well insulated home, the floor is room temperature plus a degree or two, obviously.  The floor won't feel warm until it is over 100F!

If you feel cold all the time, get some generic Cytomel pr Cynomel (Grossman Labs)25mcg tablets and start with half in the morning and noon. TSH is not a valid indicator of thyroid function; free T3 and reverse T3 are fairly good, but basal temperature and how you are feeling for energy and warmth are also valuable indicators.  Low thyroid also notoriously causes depression and fatigue, and yes, doctors sadly ignore it or get it wrong. Getting it right means the difference between struggling to survive or having a bit of energy (and enthusiasm) for some projects for me.

One last thing-  air to air heat exchangers are a great way to improve indoor air quality without a huge heating or cooling bill.  That plus a small amount of direct outside air- to compensate for duct leaks would be ideal.


EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #948 on: May 13, 2019, 09:24:11 AM »
Hi Guys...

A brief report back for the copper coil heatex addition....

Did the first run with it yesterday afternoon, the previous day's installation was cancelled due to lack of interest, and a mate arriving from a neighboring city... He needed some wheel blanks cast for a belt grinder he is starting to build... Needless to say, the attraction of playing with the furnace and sloshing around a few liters of red hot, molten aluminum won out over cutting slots in pipes with an angle grinder in the midday heat.... The casting went well, no toes and fingers incinerated, a half dozen or so 80mm wide blanks of varying diameter were produced, he was a happy chappy at day's end...

Back to the heatex... After about an hour of cussing, sweating and climbing up and down ladders, I had the unit installed in the flue. It wasn't a major task actually, just awkward, most of it ladder and angle grinder work, with a tiny little bit of drillery, tappery and weldery to fix everything into place... At the end of the job, I have a pretty mundane looking stack with a bolt on square inspection cover type of thing... The coil resides behind the cover and can be pulled out of the system by loosening a couple of 1/2" pipe fittings and reconnecting what is there... Strangely, and quite impressively, there is not much need to install the cover over the 4"wide by 2ft odd slot in the up-pipe... for tits and pickles, I wound the burner up with the cover open to see what it looked like, expecting gouts of flame and general mayhem... Nothing happened... It was as if there was a glass cover over the slot, flames passed the rather long opening in a neat spiral, following up the riser... Kinda spooky, to say the least... Needless to say, I wound it up a couple more times to show the ladies of the house, all were most impressed, so it wasn't a fluke, clearly there is plenty of draw on the old pipe chimney to do the job!! But as usual, I digress...

As to the actual heating side of things, it was also quite interesting... We started with 350L or so of 20 to 25C water, hit the on button and I took some measurements and readings...I was amazed...

The little circulation pump is whipping the water through the system at quite a rate, to get a nice even heat up of the storage tanks.... If I set it to "low" volume setting, I tend to get a large "plug" of hot water moving through the system, making it difficult to estimate turn off time (there is no auto control on this thing, its fully 100% manual)...

Back to the readings... into and out of the original heatex, I am getting a temp gradient of 1 to 2 degrees C... from there, it flows into the coil which is in the path of the exhaust flame from the original heatex. Normally, a heat run would take between 1.5 and 3 hours, between 1.5 and 5L of fuel, depending on type fuel, residual temperature of heat store, air temperature, phase of the moon and how many black cats were sacrificed to the dark engineering arts.... The previous days run used around 3 hrs and 4L of waste gunk to get it to the target temp of 50C...

Day temps were similar to the previous day, start temps only a few degrees different, run time was DRASTICALLY reduced... Inlet/outlet to the copper coil had a gradient of around 10C, way more than I was expecting.... The total run was only 45mins and consumed only a little over a L or so of fuel... Target temp ended being 10% higher, 55C, just because I took me time turning off the system while I picked up some of the tools I left strewn around..... I LIKE IT!!

This does of course bring up another problem....with this amount of heat recovery (if it carries on like this and it wasn't my senile imagination), I will need to put some sort of rather large, obnoxious, intrusive siren type temperature alerting mechanism on it... Lest I meander thru life placidly to return to a little molten pool of copper......

Keep it heating...

Cheers
Ed

(Of course the crappy quality mandatory pair of cell phone pics follow...)
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glort

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #949 on: May 13, 2019, 04:26:37 PM »

As reluctant as I am to question your numbers Ed, they on face value did not seem to compute based on gut feeling. Crunching them more accurately with my socks off as well confirmed this.
 
350L at a 30o Temp rise on say 1200 Ml of oil would take 100% heating efficiency and I'm pretty sure even a genius at shithackery like you is not getting that. :0)  I have a couple of Fin and tube HE's up the back out of some very efficient heaters and they only do 88-90% efficiency. Again based on dissapointing experience I'd be thinking you'd be lucky to be getting 60% if that.  The higher you go the faster the heat escapes. You appear to have uninsulated pipe as a casing there and that's going to bleed off a lot of BTU in itself.

 I would respectfully suggest either your start temps were a fair bit higher than you thought with the new HE ( Would seem your previous run was on a Saturday night after all and we know thats when everyone has their weekly Bath so no hot water was probably used the next day) or you used more oil than you realised OR, You need to get your backside down to the nearest patent office and register the worlds most efficient bit of copper pipe ever Coiled!

The output from 2o to 10 degrees being a 500% increase in efficiency would be pretty remarkable though.
 Either your original HE was rubbish or the new one is fantastic! Have you shot your stack temps after the HE? That will also give you a pretty good insight as to how well you are doing at pulling the heat out.  I was given a commercial space heater that had a PVC flue pipe. Confused the guts out of me as I couldn't figure out what this pipe was for and never dreamed they would do the flue pipe in PVC but found out the stack temps were supposed to be under 40oC and this was for a 10 Kw heater!

I have no doubt you have made a great improvement with this new HE but I hate to be the one to say I think more careful measurement is required and to brace yourself for a possible re adjustment of figures.  :-[

I'm a bit torn with this myself.
The gas water heater converted to oil would be a lot easier to work with and smaller as well but the efficiency would not be near as good. On the 5th hand I'm thinking so what, not like the fuel is costing me anything anyway.
I'm probably just a bit Gun shy of these heater based on the last effort.  Being the ignorant I am, I thought I can Ring a lot more out of this Muther than the 100KW it's rated for with teh gas burner, I can get 200Kw at least out of this thing and heat my Pool in no time.
I then realised while I could pump 200Kw into the thing with ease with an oil burner, it was far from the brilliant Idea my ego thought it was when teh water started boiling in the tubes and the resulting steam explosions or whatever it is called , had the thing trying to walk itself away.... with plumbing still attached!

I found it quite difficult to ONLY pump 100Kw into the thing.  Hense the thought of the low output burner this time round.
OTOH, the efficency of a gas water heater is so poor you can blow 200KW through the thing and it only absorbs so much and the great majority of energy just blows on right out the top and the thing effectively self regulates till the water boils which takes time rather than instantly.

ATM the day temps here are about 21oC and the nights are around 3.  I mucked up with my solar and found I was 60KWh ahead of what I realised. I put on a fan heater today that does 2KW to burn off some power ( which it does VERY well) and heat the cold end of the house.  Whole house with the AC fan on  spreading the heat was toasty tonight which was interesting that so little input was needed. I am convinced though there is air temp and surface temp at play.  Unless the furniture and walls are up to temp, the place is still going to feel cold hence an experiment with a change of strategy to keep the place heated at all times rather than " batch" heating at night.

Makes me wonder why I can get away with so little heat now when the place will  seem like an iceblock  in another month or so but the temps won't be that different.  Maybe a little colder but probably for much longer.  Daytime temps will average just a couple of degrees below what they are now.  Everyone round here is saying that last year was much colder than they can remember so maybe just our first winter was an Atypical one?  I'll let you know about that theroy in 3 months time.
Going to be interesting to see how much heat I actually need from the burner heater.

The solar is producing MUCH better than it was last year as well proportionaly. yes I have added more power but the main array on the shed hasn't been touched save for replacing a broken panel over summer and it's doing way better as well. Next month is the lowest solar Radiation here so be interesting to see what I get. having too much time on my hands I have a lot of figures at to what I was getting last winter...... although not as much data as some geniuses with high end monitoring software that track the output second by second!

I was looking at the new burner I constructed on the weekend.  yeah.......  I think I got a bit carried away.  Thought I was doing a small one but I now look at what I ended up with I wonder how I thought that. Thing is massive over kill for the power I was designing for.
I'll use this one for the secondary Purpose of a verandah fire place . Thing should be a lot happier at 50-100 Kw than the 5-10kw I was thinking..... and I don't remember drinking anything at the time to excuse that brainfart. I'll blame the welding fumes for making me high.
 I'll go down the exhaust place tomorrow  and have something more appropriate bent up to save a lot of tinkbuggerising around with something that will do the output I am aiming for.    :-[

The YT crowd often seem not to have any more fabrication capability than a Drill and angle grinder so this new design of the new design largely constructed by someone else will suit their capabilities perfectly.   ;D






EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #950 on: May 14, 2019, 09:33:02 AM »
Hey Glort,

The numbers do indeed seem quite a bit higher than I expected, agreed.... But only reported on what I saw.

Errors have undoubtedly crept in, the second run yesterday took around an hour or just under, starting at just under 30C with the heat store and ending up at just over 50C, which was target. Still way faster than before...

A bit of explanation is also due to visualise the burner functions... Initially, with around a 700mm burner tube/heatex, flame was attempted to be confined to the exchanger body. While it worked well, changes in visco as the oil warmed up a bit would cause richer running with flames entering the stack, not a problem, just a waste of fuel...

I now overfuel the main burner/heatex slightly, encouraging a wisp of flame to lick the coil section. Once that is accomplished, I then open a secondary air inlet at the bottom which then results in a pale yellow/white/blue flame in the immediate centerish area of the copper coil... The heat loss to the far side of the coil from the flame in the center results in a stack temp of around 400C plus in the immediate area of said coil... Above and below it, the temp is way lower, by hundreds... (the stack is in a sheltered alcove, so unless there's a gale force wind on the loose, temps remain quite high.)

The heat store is split into 2 separate but serially joined tanks, with the input to the store first feeding one tank, then from that the other secondary tank (which has a temp probe)... Doubtless there could be a spot of warmer water in the first tank that is not accounted for, this would skew readings.... (This would average out after a few days running of course.)

Further, I am not metering fuel into the tank by the ml... I brim fill it, from a loosely graduated container (read that as 5L plastic oil can) and guestimate the approximate consumption, seldom am I more than  a 100ml or so out, particularly after dosing around 10 000L this way...(or it feels like it anyway when I fill up a tank!)

Fuelling errors might come from having residual fuel in the top gravity fed tank, but I leave the system to drain down after a run, so this is unlikely.

One thing that may "skew things" is the rate of heating... The longer I take to heat the system, the more the piping acts as a very inefficient convection radiator. Hammering heat into the system in as short a time as possible might just be a bit more effective than trickling it in slowly, who knows?

After a bit of measuring yesterday, I found that DT on heatex #1 was 4C at an average, on the coil around DT of 17C, but, as mentioned above, that would be expected as the major/high temp flame front is after the exhaust of heatex #1...

I have just filled up the fuel tank, and, again, a little over 1.25L was needed, around 1350/1400ml at a rough guestimate....

Who knows, maybe I've inadvertently discovered cold rediscovered hot fusion on a home-hack basis.... Next is the flux capacitor I suppose.... Marty, Marty..... Now where has that damn boy got to now....?

But enough of my burner for now....

Last night I managed to have some welding fun... Wound up the old TiG and stuck together another bunch of 25x25x3 stainless angle for yet another battery frame/rack... Each rack holds 4x 638SMF car batteries, I have four set up at the moment, this is the fifth... This will bring the chem power store to around 350AH..

Glort, if I remember correctly, you were designing a "different" burner... C'mon, spill the beans... Tell me more!!

Enough rambling...Time to do some boring paperwork....

Keep it burning...

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

glort

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #951 on: May 14, 2019, 11:39:01 AM »

In many parts of the world Ed, Hot water systems are required to hit 70o C at least once a week.  This is supposedly to prevent Legionella.
Do you ever fire your heater that high or is it not a concern for the design of your system?

Regardless of the efficiency of your system, you have improved it and that's the main thing.

Are you just drip feeding your burner?  I'm trying to get away from that.  For relatively short runs like you have it's probably workable but for longer runs where tank levels, warming oil and other factors come into play and you want a constant output, I think gravity is harder to manage that a bit of added complexity.  I have a few pumps I'm going to try to even out the longer run stability.  A peristaltic Pump would by ideal but I have yet to see one cheap enough  to justify for my pyromanical proclivities.

The burner I have built ( and am going to further refine) is as simple as I am.   Air and Oil enters in a supply tube which comes from one end, goes along the length of the burner section then down into the burner which is underneath.  I'm going to save myself the welding and in the next couple of days go to the exhaust shop and have them bend me a U shape with an extended side for the fan and oil supply.  I'll block one end with a welsch plug, drill some holes in the bottom  part of the U which will be on it's side and that will be it.

The idea being that the incoming air and fuel is being heated by the fire so it readily combusts when it gets out the lower section and therefore supplys the heat for the phase change.
The main idea behind such direct heating is to be able to run Low outputs and have the retained heat to be able to sustain that without problem.

I have built one of this design but looking at it since I think I went way overboard with the dimension of the sq tube I used which was about 75Mm. In hindsight I could easy do 40mm  for the 5-10 Kw I'm aiming for.

 I also have another design in mind I'm calling the channel burner.
This will be a bit of channel with capped ends to form a trough with another piece of probably square tube running down the centre along the length.
The sides of the tube will be drilled  to allow air and vapor to escape and hit the sides of the channel where combustion should take place and keep the whole thing hot.  I am thinking of turning the square tube to 45o Offset and the holes in the sides will then point down into the corners of the channel to promote turbulence and heating of the delivery tube.

Again, nice and simple like me.
I think the advantages of both these designs will be to sustain low outputs ( by oil burning standards) and create a more gas like output suitable for heating hotplates like a BBQ or air heating  for the spa unit I have with the finned HE.

Mate rang me today and asked if I still had the burner section of the heater he gave me. I said yes and he said great, I need the gas valve. Don't make them anymore and i'm at a pool up the road and the one on here has gone kaput.
I pulled it off and he came got it and I was looking at the burner.

 It's just a pipe with jets set in the side that blow the gas down about 30 pressed metal strips where the flame burns. I was thinking that there is no reason I couldn't use a piece of rectangular steel section over the top of the burners and then exit that back into the the same pipe the gas was fed into and run the burner just like it did on gas.  Might need to again bend some round tube maybe 1.5" into a horse shoe so it does 2 passes over the burner area to make sure I get the oil completely vaporising and then the next question would be the jetting / air mixing in the burner pieces.

I don't think that will be an issue, I can control the amount of oil and air I put into the vaporiser, I can drill the jets or I can close up the air hole in the burner pieces. Only thing I might have to do is make the evaporator removable  as I doubt it will be self cleaning which also makes me think about the issue of jets blocking with small pieces of carbon or ash. Possibly I could stuff corse steel wool in somewhere before the jets to act as a filter.   May not be as doable as I think, only one way to find out... spend a lot of time buggerising about with it.   Should work fine on diesel, kero or turps though as they burn ash free. 

Another design is for a draft type burner and relies on a backwards flame path.  Hard to describe but I think I could do it out of 2 sections of channel  one upright, one sideways.  The air inlet would be towards the stove/ heater and the flame would travel back to the front of the burner, go over a gap in the top of the channel holding the oil, travel down the side, underneath and back into the heater or stove. It would be the standard draft burner concept that just burns the vapor off the surface of the oil pool but with the additional heating may well go full phase change mode.  At the front of the burner a secondary air inlet would provide mixing and tuning of the oil vapor to get a clean burn.  I see a lot of Draft designs don't allow for secondary air which is why so many never seem to burn completely clean and also need cleaning of deposits.  With a bit of preheating I don't see any reason this couldn't also be set up as a compact forced air burner.

With forced air you can do complete mixing in one stage and have excess oxygen and enough turbulance and heat to turn all deposits into ash and be discharged with the exhaust. on the draft designs they often run rich causing buildup and there is not enough heat, turbulance or air speed to burn the carbon completely and discharge it.

Anyway, as usual my feeble mind is writing Cheques my body and motivation can't cash but I do have one built at least and ready for testing.
The draft burner might be the next one I take on as although I have done a few simple Pot type draft burners which are nice to sit round in the back yard because they are so quiet, I haven't done anything different with them.  This one will take some thinking about and fabribuggerising  and probably a job for a new welder that can do the lighter gauge stuff more neatly.


EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #952 on: May 14, 2019, 01:45:18 PM »
Hey Glort,

I occasionally take it up to around 70C, mostly when I get involved in the workshop and forget to check the temp, one thing that counts as a plus for sterilizing the system is that the main heat store and all of the piping right to the taps is copper.... I did have a mate do a bacterial check on the water a long while back, months after we went onto the water harvesting binge, and the bacterial levels were lower than our monkeypality supplied water....

For the burner, I am free running oil over the babbington ball, catching it in a scavenge tank, then pumping it to about 1.5m above the burner to a supply tank... Previously, our runs were between 3 and 5 hours, pretty much unattended, depending on how many guests we had staying over.. Sometimes this place is like Grand Central Station....

I like the ideas for your new burners, please post some pics when and as you are building things, in fact post some pics here of the one you have completed, I am keen to see!!!!

Hmmmmm...... Time for a new welder you say.... One for lighter gauge stuff..... I think its time you graduated to Tig, me china!!

Keep it cooking....

Cheers
Ed

PS...

Just finished another heating run on the burner - 1 hour, 27.1C start, 51.5C finish, about 1.6L oil used... I must admit, it was rolling a bit of coal for about 20mins, I was involved on a tele call placing an order and couldn't get to it to trim....
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

glort

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #953 on: May 15, 2019, 03:44:32 AM »

Just finished another heating run on the burner - 1 hour, 27.1C start, 51.5C finish, about 1.6L oil used... I must admit, it was rolling a bit of coal for about 20mins, I was involved on a tele call placing an order and couldn't get to it to trim....

That seems more achievable.

Roughly 10 Kw of energy needed for that temp rise and you had 16Kw to play with in the oil burned.
Given you were fumigating for pests and miscreants, 65-70% efficiency is pretty damn good. 

I'll do some pics of the new burner tomorrow so you can see the design and why I want a new welder.
I used it today to do a small weld on some heavy stuff and cranked up the feed. It was fine and I got a proper weld.  Just stutters so badly lower down.