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Author Topic: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications  (Read 169600 times)

mikenash

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #930 on: May 09, 2019, 07:14:03 PM »
If that last five feet of 4" pipe is vertical or vertical-ish, why don't you replace it with a double-skinned stainless section - 4" pipe inside 6" pipe with an inch fitting top and bottom.  Voila!  Thermosiphon

I'm a big fan of solid, heavy-wall, stainless wetbacks, and have had them on my last four woodstoves.  IMHO much, much more effective at heating water than any copper loop device

Cheers

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #931 on: May 10, 2019, 08:27:28 AM »
Hi Mike,

Easier said than done, I'm afraid... This section of pipe was an afterthought, tacked onto the original project...because, well, I just had it lying around... Unfortunately, it is higher than my heat-store too, so hydronic wouldn't work either.... But hey, good suggestion nevertheless!!

The copper loop device is just to glean a bit of energy out when I over-fuel the burner...More playing around than anything else... Again, just because it was laying around, might as well make something of the copper... (before the local miscreants come visiting again and appropriate it....)

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

mikenash

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #932 on: May 10, 2019, 10:24:01 AM »
Y'know if you made a fat outer pipe so there was quite a bit of capacity, and vented it to atmosphere at the same height - or maybe about a foot higher? -  than the vent on your hot water cylinder, you could probably use it as some sort of crude pre-heater for the HWC.  Smart folks here could come up with all sorts of management systems for something like that . . .

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #933 on: May 10, 2019, 12:09:29 PM »
Would be cool....but.....the main hot water store is about 3ft below ground level in the basementl...I aint diggin up me concrete!!

I do have a PLC spare on the other hand...with a quad analog thermocouple input....I could just hook that up and with a flow detector on each tap with a thermocouple, a passive in each washroom to detect human ingress..... a couple of progressive solenoid valves...a bluetooth module.... Away we go... Walk into the bathroom with your phone, the system recognizes you, you open a shower tap and voila....Water set exactly to the temperature you need/like.... The fact that you have to go to the basement to program the PLC cold/hot mix should't be a problem.....

Enough of my BS...

Lol
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

ajaffa1

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #934 on: May 10, 2019, 11:31:53 PM »
Not quite as crazy as it sounds. Bill Gates used to send out a questionnaire to all his house guests. This information was programmed into the main house computer and the guests were tracked using a radio chip, as they moved from room to room the art work, temperature, light levels and  background music would change to suite the guest. Preferred water temperature should be easy.

Bob

glort

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #935 on: May 11, 2019, 01:19:41 AM »

Pretty high tech but I don't think it would be an advantage to me.
I have my shower temps at all different levels.  Last night I had it hot because I felt cold. think I was a bit chilled from being out in the cold wind.
In summer I have it luke warm to cool off a bit.

Being a fickle creature I doubt anything automated would ever get it right for me.

Certainly does open up interesting possibilities though.
I want to automate an oil burning heater.  :0)

ajaffa1

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #936 on: May 11, 2019, 10:13:04 AM »
Very interested in your automated oil burner idea. I have now found an almost unlimited supply of WVO and am looking to collect some soon for cleaning. I also need to find some suitable storage. I know where there are in excess of a hundred empty 45 gallon barrels and I will be collecting some as soon as Narelle is out of hospital.

In the UK I ran heating boilers on a variety of liquid fuels and I am sure that a WVO boiler would work very well if you were prepared to replace the spark ignition system with an LPG pilot light.

Bob

glort

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #937 on: May 11, 2019, 02:45:30 PM »

There are a bunch of ideas wizzing round in the space for rent in my head Bob.

The first thing is gravity is useless for something you want to run long hours like a heater. I have a fpulse type fuel Pump i'm going to tes and a couple of smaller ones for Coffee machines.  I think they will be OK as they are designed to do fairly high pressure. For a heater type burner 5-10 KW will be loads for either a water or house space heater.

I am thinking of using Jets to regulate flow with the Fuel pump.  The oil may need a little preheating before the jet to take it over 40oC under 40 veg has a lot of viscosity change but over 40 it's only a few percent from there on up.

For the traditional Drip feed systems I think think  they too are crap for long run applications as the fuel level and the heating of the fuel will vary the flow a lot.  What I think this needs is to copy a carburettor fuel bowl.  The fuel needs a constant level. This could be done with a valve, I think it  might have been ED that rigged an arm to a ball valve to get a level but what I am thinking is like a pool that a pump lifts fuel to, has an outlet  to the burner and then an over flow above that back to the tank.  The pump brings the fuel up and the excess goes back to the tank maintaining the level.

For a space heater I'm thinking a thermostat coupled to a pair of solenoid valves. One valve is the Run/ Idle fuel and the other is the oil on the " Heat " setting. The thing just ticks over till the thermostat says it's too cold and then the second Valve opens ramping up the flame. When things are warm enough, the second  valve shuts and the burner goes into low or idle mode. 

I'm sure a PLC or an arduino could be programmed to do the whole thing. Have a solenoid for a gas fire up with a spark plug for preheat, sense a certain temp, start oil flowing, count to 60 sec and shut off gas  and then control flow and temp of what is to be heated.
I'll start with something simpler first!

The burner I Built today is a new design I came up with and haven't seen anywhere else specificity designed for low outputs around 5KW or less. I paid a lot of attention to the preheating and phase changeing of the oil and i believe it should go down to really low outputs if need be once running.  Metering the oil  down to  2-300Ml an hour is a trick but might be able to use a small dosing pump for that.

 I can get burners to do 200Kw without thinking about it but getting that low output is more of a challenge.  That said I have an online challenge with a guy on YT to build the highest output  burner. I'm thinking 12-1500KW output to be in the race for that one.

This one is also designed to be like a traditional fireplace/ grate I can put on my back verandah and sit in front of.  I have some H beam thin sections for legs and I'll use that bit of sheet I bent round the gas bottle for the Plough but never ended up using  for a reflector. made it to fit the spa heater for heating the house although i'm thinking the converted gas water heater Might be enough.  I might get to building the reverse flow burner for that during the week and testing it.

If you are going to get half serious about WVO and have a constant use, I would skip 44's and go straight to IBC's if you can get them.  Spose depends on your use but when I was running round a lot in the truck I was using about 4000L of oil a year and supplying a mate with more so 44's took up way too much space.  If you are just going to run engines might be ok with a 44 but if you are going to use it for heating you might want to look at your predicted consumption.

 If you can find any, definitely grab some open top/ removable lid Drums. they can be VERY handy for filtering and processing.  For storage i prefer plastic drums as they won't rust if left in the open. If you have a dry shed not to worry and if you need to store metal drums in the open best to get them off the ground somehow so the arse don't rust out of them.

1000L seems a lot but you can go through it quick when you are burning 80-100L a week. I also liked to do all my collecting and processing in summer and have enough to carry me through winter and pretty much through to at least mid / late spring when the weather was warmer and the supplies ramped up again as people started eating out.

I'm setting a local guy up atm with a collection pump and a processor.  He has a lot of old machinery and a $4k a month fuel bill he wants to reduce.
Going to set him up a 1000L processor from the get go so he can set the thing going and leave it run on a timer and come back when it's done ready to pump into the clean tank.

I'm going with the modified Small Block Chev gear pump I have been using for over 10 years as I have yet to find anything close to the performance for 1/10th the price of anything comparable. I have been using 24V/ 250W scooter motors on the pumps for years and they work great but  now there are 350W units available pretty cheap so I have got one of those to put on the HV SBC pump .  I weld 1" ports right into the side of those for good flow and also shave the casings to get tighter clearances on the rotor gears  which normally gives more pressure but in this application gives even better flow.
With the bigger motor the thing should be doing close to 100L Min on reasonably warm 20oC oil.

The guy has a spa Pump with a heater so I'll set that up on a thermostat to give about 25oC if the oil needs it to aid in filtering through the 10" Household 5um water filter. 

ajaffa1

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #938 on: May 12, 2019, 01:08:21 AM »
Wow, a lot to think about there. Some early Lister petrol/kero engines had a carburetor exactly as you describe with a weir arrangement rather than a float valve. Fuel was pumped up to the carburetor any excess flowed over the weir and returned to the fuel tank.

Like the idea of using solenoids valves to trigger incremental burners as the demand increases. should be efficient and easily controllable.

Very worried you are trying to build the worlds largest oil burner, does your Wife know what you are up to and are you planning to warn the neighbors? You might also want to warn local air traffic control and possibly NORAD, wouldn`t want our American cousins thinking someone has launched a nuclear missile!  :laugh:

I will certainly be using IBC tanks for storage. The 44s will only be used for transportation of dirty oil. Later I will be building a trailer with an IBC tank for collections.

Very much like the idea of a spa heater and pump to drive the filtration process, I will start looking out for such a system.

Bob

oldtime

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #939 on: May 12, 2019, 09:23:28 AM »
There is a great carburetor in an old oil heater take a look at them. . I used to service them . They have a float height control and an element to heat the oil .

ajaffa1

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #940 on: May 12, 2019, 09:53:00 AM »
Hi Oldtime, more information on the type of oil burners, please. A web link would be great.

Hi Glort, your oil burner has got me thinking, WVO has a much higher calorific value than LPG, has anyone ever tried using it to fuel a hot air balloon? You regularly see these things take to the skies with the basket half full of large LPG cylinders. How about a smaller tank full of WVO and a small compressed air cylinder to pressurize it?

Bob

glort

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #941 on: May 12, 2019, 10:39:18 AM »

Like the idea of using solenoids valves to trigger incremental burners as the demand increases. should be efficient and easily controllable.

There is a guy on YT who did this with just the old Snap disks. When they cooled they engaged for more heat and when they got hot enough they broke the circuit.  New inverter AC units are Throttleable but the old types they used for years were just on off and worked fine. I will probably be heating water and putting it through a HE so there will be plenty of buffer there anyway as well as with a fan on the HE as well.

Quote
Very worried you are trying to build the worlds largest oil burner, does your Wife know what you are up to and are you planning to warn the Neighbors?

I'm a bit worried myself!

I know what I can do, Just wondering how much I can do here or if I should take the thing to a mates 20 Acres to fire it up?
I see at least 2 jumping castle Blowers on the thing and wondering about ducting the output from my 5 Hp garden vac.  I'm thinking 2x 100mm air tubes and at least a 10mm oil feed pipe off one of my gear pumps.
I'll stage the air to Primary and secondary to try and get a shorter burn without the 10 Ft Flames

Quote
I will certainly be using IBC tanks for storage. The 44s will only be used for transportation of dirty oil. Later I will be building a trailer with an IBC tank for collections.

If you are Pumping out of 44's the electric pump I make up will be perfect. If you are drawing from the 400L tanks or larger, a petrol powered pump with a foot valve is the way to go.  Don't recommend them on 44's, overkill and you can't easily avoid the settled muck on the bottom without sucking air and loosing prime.  When you do, re priming is a pain.

Quote
Very much like the idea of a spa heater and pump to drive the filtration process, I will start looking out for such a system.

Bob

I reckon the Ultimate would be to use a water cooled Diesel engine. Have it driving the pump for filtering, run oil through it and an exhaust HE to heat it up and it runs on finished product.

Funny you mention Hot air Ballons Bob. Mrs went for a ride on one last weekend and I got to see them up real close.
The basket held up to 20 people and the Cylinders they were using were larger than the regular 45Kg, I'd guess 100 and they had 4 of them on board for what was supposed to be a 1 Hr Flight. I distinctly Remember thinking that is a LOT of gas and energy they have there.

I don't think oil would be good for these things.  I believe they need a pretty instant burn when they want it and to keep a burner hot without generating hot air you didn't want so when you hit the the thing you got instant heat would be a challenge to say the least. I would also think to get a clean burn you are going to need some sort of containment like a tube and that might make the flame too concerntrated with out a diffuser which would all be weight and balance to be considered.

I looked up those burners and they are doing  up to 4000Kw output. That is over 6.5L per Minute Burn.  That is going to be a LOT of liquid to phase change in an on/ off application.  Easy enough in a stationary setting like a furnace where you can ramp it up to self sustain but to go from zero or even 100 Kw to 4000, I think that's going to take a Lot of compressed air.

Petrol would be a much better fuel from a calorific POV but the safety would be something else.
I was watching some petrol Fired Burner Vids and as wary as I am of it, I see no reason why it would not be safely workable with the right burner setup for instant light and preheat with a change over to oil once up to temp.  I have seen petrol powered Cutting torches on the net and apparently they are used by rescue services so must be OK.

ajaffa1

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #942 on: May 12, 2019, 12:04:07 PM »
Hi Glort, you might want to have a look at trying to find information on Kidd boilers. We used to install these for farmers in the UK, they ran well on heating oil, kero or diesel and were 90% efficient, I`m sure they could be converted to run on WVO perhaps with the addition of a little RUG to increase flammability/decrease flash point. All of these were what you call wet back systems. The heated water was pumped to a manifold with thermostatically controlled solenoid valves which delivered the hot water to the areas/hot water cylinders to be heated. The boilers had an adjustable built in thermostat that heated the water to around 80 degrees centigrade, once they reached the set temperature they would shut down. when the boiler cooled due to returning cooler water, the thermostat would kick in and the boiler would fire again.

I`m not sure of the setup you have in your home regarding heating/cooling so it is very difficult to give any more advice.

Yes, take your experimental burner out into the middle of nowhere to test it, preferably at least 10 Kms from anything mortal!  :laugh:

I agree entirely with your idea to use a water cooled diesel engine to heat, dry and filter WVO. As soon as Narelle has recovered from her hysterectomy (surgery tomorrow) I will be pouring a concrete slab and building the shed for the Lister CS with exactly that concept in mind. Love the idea of an engine setup that cleans, drys and filters it`s own fuel, while also providing me with heat and electricity!

Sorry the balloon idea is not a goer, would probably have produced too much soot anyway. Not sure petroleum would be a suitable replacement, remember the Hindenburg? Hope your Wife had a really good time, hot air ballooning is a wonderful experience.

Bob


glort

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #943 on: May 12, 2019, 10:04:39 PM »

I looked up the Kidd boilers but couldn't find much on their actual operation other than  they are efficient.
The spa heater I am converting is about the same, 90% Effient.  I am planning to heat water, pass that through a heat exchanger and then use that to heat air going into the house.  I want to introduce air into the house rather than recirculate it to keep out drafts and reduce the cold air coming in when doors and windows are opened.

 We are planning on a new Kitchen and the floor will have to be re tiled.  I thought might be a good opportunity to put in electric floor heating.  Then thought again.
At around $250 per sq meter and a 70M floor area...... Forget that!  I could pay off the winter power bill for 43 years at that cost and I'm damn sure I'll be ash long before that.  And of course it would only heat the kitchen, not the lounge, dining or bedrooms.  Would be nice to have a warm floor but for that price....

I was experimenting with a heating element in a bucket of Rocks this week as a heat store. Less thermal retention than water but if I get a drum full of  gravel leaking inside.... no big deal.  Water would be a bit different.
I used a stove element and the test was not a success.  The element burn out, as in burnt a gap clean through it.  It wasn't the solar panels feeding it overpowering it because it was getting less that 1000W through a 2K element.  I suspect the rocks didn't draw the heat away and in fact insulated it  causing  the element to over heat and melt. Once that happened the DC arced a 2 CM gap in the thing. 
Kinda threw me for a bit as to how there was still continuity but the array was pulling to do about 8V from 150. There was just a bit of melted steel making a connection which caused a hot spot but by passed the internal Nichrome.

The idea may be workable but I think multiple elements running maybe 25% power may be required so as to dissipate the heat and not overheat them in the process.

The array has been working REALLY well on the Ohms matched 240V water heating element.  Had 100L of water too hot to put my hand in today in an uninsulated drum.  I'll go back to the local friendly scrappy this week and see if he has any water heaters in reasonable Condition and see what sort of heat I can get

Big burners are easy, so much margin to play with . Doing small burners is the challenge.  I hope to test the latest  rush of blood to the head early this week.  I think I may have oversized it but then again I may need more heat than I think. Soon see.

Hope all goes well for your wifes Surgery.  Must be very scary for her and yourself. When it's over she will feel much better and have improved quality of life which will be great for you both and along with your return to better operating efficiency.
If there is an upside to her problem, at least it is Fixable. Not pleasant I'm sure but there is light at the end of the tunnel.

My Mrs was very out of sorts today. What ails her can't be fixed unfortunately and these supposed happy occasions are just reminders of that.

I'm not a faithful person but I will be thinking of your Mrs tomorrow and willing all goes well for her and you both. 



BruceM

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #944 on: May 13, 2019, 12:46:27 AM »
"I am planning to heat water, pass that through a heat exchanger and then use that to heat air going into the house.  I want to introduce air into the house rather than recirculate it to keep out drafts and reduce the cold air coming in when doors and windows are opened. "

I suggest you reconsider this.  A small amount of air added to the house is good, as it compensates for lost air in leaky ducts, and helps keep the house near neutral pressure instead of negative.  Something like perhaps 200 cfm for your big house.  Much more than that pressurizes the house substantially, with in winter drives warmer wet air into the wall cavities and ceiling through leaky outlet boxes and this might cause mold problems.  The upside of slightly positive pressure via fresh heated air would be improved air quality. So adding some fresh air to your return airflow is the standard procedure for better air quality homes.  The fresh air intake can be closed via motor damper for air quality events like wildfires.