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Author Topic: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications  (Read 289561 times)

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #435 on: November 15, 2016, 08:24:20 AM »
Hey DS....

Green with envy..... Cardinal sin in progress.... Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's Fuge!!

Lol
Ed
« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 10:29:41 AM by EdDee »
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EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #436 on: November 15, 2016, 11:18:02 AM »
Hey Guys,

Right, so here's a question.... With TM2 not a million years away from being built up, the shape, location and chassis design of the genset must be decided...

Has anybody got any experience with, or seen running, a Lister CS type genset with the alternator in line with the crank - ie an "inline" type setup (either close coupled, loose coupled or belt driven)?

Reason: I have a basement storeroom which would make a very nice gen shed - it is close to utility power switch over equipment, is out of the way, is secure, is in pretty much all requirements ideal for a gen housing.... One problem - Width!!

The room is around 2-3m long, but the access doorway is only about 750mm wide and the room another 2-400mm wider than the doorway.... It is more of a passage that goes nowhere rather than a room... I could just fit the gen through the doorway if I sent it to a slimming salon, but starting and access would be impossible.....

I am considering mounting TM2 lengthwise on a frame, with flywheel and starting kit facing the end of the frame. The genhead and drive would be on the far side of the engine...

My main concern is the torsional torque pulses on the frame when it is in a lengthwise configuration, bounce and dance as the torque will be acting on the narrower section of the chassis - Bear in mind, this will be another "wheeled or skid sled" type unit, it would have to be slid out of the gen house for maintenance, so no heavy cement block will help here....

Keep it thumping...

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #437 on: November 16, 2016, 11:18:51 AM »
Hey Glort,

I have a couple of "interesting" problems using the location I want.... Its quite low, not really enough space for the overhead alts, narrow, but long... All cement/concrete - About the only surplus space will be at the end of the genset to install a snatch block on the wall to winch it into position... I might even have to mount the radiator externally to the door, using a "dogs' leg" shape bracket (to get a bit more height to thermosyphon), integral to the chassis itself, so the whole mess can be slid out for servicing(Probably put down some 3" channel on the floor, open side up to act as rails, but don't know yet)....

Actual drive to the alternator will probably be double v belts, with the alternator shaft probably below the crankshaft and in line with it, with the alternator nestling partway below the main channel chassis top, maybe even having the mounting plate or base of the alternator level with the bottom of the surrounding channel - I want to keep the CG as low as possible, as the door to this cellar exits into a courtyard with a bit of a slope.... Its definitely going to be a bit of a "juggle around" with some heavy sections of channel to see what the jigsaw puzzle will look like when finished!! (Officially known as "Proof of Concept" in lah di dah terms!!)

The alt itself is a hefty beast for a lister, it rates in at 6.5KW constant, probably capable of about 20KW surge, judging by the brushes and windings and weighs close to around 80 to 100Kg if I remember my muscle aches after moving it around...(Probably actually 50Kg or so, I was quite tired that day...Lol)

BTW - Yesterday I got round to putting in the base gaskets, cyl hold down rods/studs, piston, rings and cylinder... Made up a couple of spacers and clamps to torque the mess down without the head so I can check squish and levels... While I am at it, I am going to prep, balance and install the IP side flywheel (Probably the biggest of the 3 sizes of flywheels I have) - That way I can mark it out with TDC/degree markings and get that mess together...I see a whole lot of gib key fitting in my immediate future!!

Just got a bee in my bonnet and nipped down to the cellar entrance - It measures about 880 Wide (Of which about 800 is usable at ground level) and 1400mm high - It does open up a bit on the width when you get past the entrance, but not much! Currently, if I look at TM1, his width is around 780mm (If he were oriented with crank direction lengthwise) and his height is about 1400 mm excluding the radiator and stand which tops out at 2000mm - This includes all the crap directly fitted to him, manifolds, air cleaner, exhaust etc. I could very likely take off easily 200 mm off his height by removing his wheels and changing the sub crankcase exhaust layout slightly... This is looking more and more feasible... (Cramped maybe, but feasible!!)

Right - here's one for the greater brained professors out there: With a 3:1 pulley ratio, turning 1500/500rpm respectively, what would the the recommended pulley diameters be, to transfer 6Kw when using v-belt widths(across the back) of 12.7mm, 2 belts in sheave? (With minimal slip of course!!)

Keep it spinning!!

Cheers
Ed

PS: Been keeping an eye on TM1's blow bye since the seize (Pump still not done yet...) and it seems like the compression rings might be either a)bedding in again, or b) becoming "unstuck" as the blowing seems to be becoming less and less with each run.... Who knows? (Maybe its the "Swan Song" before he goes totally legs up!!)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 12:33:43 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
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EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #438 on: November 17, 2016, 08:18:16 AM »
Hey Guys,

Managed to spend a couple of hours worth of "quality time" with TM2.

I have done a bit of poking around on the IP side crankshaft and manged to fit 2xFlywheels to that side, using gib keys(Would be much easier and more compact with taper bushes, but lets stick to hand tooling on this). With about 1mm clearance to the oil seal, the largest flywheel is fitted. The gib key has been adapted to suit, as the crankshaft keyway ends just inboard of the spoke area of the flywheel when it is in place. I have had to step the head of the gib key as well, leaving about 1/8" above the keyway so the second flywheel keys on to it and butts up against its head, thus acting as a retainer as well. The outboard flywheel leaves about 20mm or thereabouts (havent measured it) of crankshaft sticking out to allow the fitting of the outer gib key. (This is a bit like playing mechanical tetris....) Both keys have been file fitted to the flywheels and shafts - the inner leaves about 1/4" of travel once tight and the outer leaves about the same. When the outer key is fully fitted, it is flush with the end of the crankshaft... This does "complicate" manual starting a bit, but I do have a plan in mind...(Involving a big hand drill, a stepped and tapped hole in the end of the crankshaft, a lathe and an extension to fit the starter handle...Which will also act as a gib key retainer for the outboard key too!!)

For a big lump of cast iron, with PLENTY of space on the crankshafts to hang things, its starting to get a little "crowded". So much so, in fact, that the rim of the inner flywheel is almost over the hinge bolt for the governor IP linkage....

Anybody want a pic or two? If so, drop a reply and I will take a few and post them...

Keep on cramming....

Cheers
Ed

Edit: Just remembered... While fitting and filing the gib keys, I came across a quite handy way to pull them out if you have enough clearance.... Use a largish open ended spanner over the head of the key at 90 degrees to it and use the back of the open end as a "camming surface" against the flywheel boss face, packing the face out as you extract the key. While I was test fitting keys yesterday, I got a tad over-zealous a few times (and seated them to full fit) - To my surprise, the spanner trick pulled them out with minimal fuss!! (Yep, you gotta push quite hard, but they pulled out the keys!!)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 09:08:05 AM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #439 on: November 19, 2016, 10:46:18 PM »
Hey girls...

Here's some pics of what I have been up to...

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 Double Flywheel Setup 20161119/

I will give more info during the week.... In the meantime, comments welcome!

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #440 on: November 20, 2016, 08:28:46 AM »
Hey Glort,

All our life forms are carbon based.... Thats where oil comes from.... I might be able to speed up the animal/vegetable/oil/coal/lignite cycle habit and just go straight to using miscreants!

Lol

Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #441 on: November 21, 2016, 10:57:23 AM »
Hey Guys,

More info on the "Walking Effluent Liquidizing system".....

All four wheels are now balanced, the balance weights at outermost web were in the region of: 0g,170g,85g,155g each.... They were at "random positions" relative to each other... Only one early style wheel was correctly balanced. (The later wheels show a definite drop in casting quality and workmanship.)

I have also installed 2x600g weights as close as I can to crank radius, on the inner flywheels. The rotary imbalance was around 10850g under balanced as per our little kitchen scale that somehow, conveniently, turned up in the oil spattered workshop, just when I needed it.... (Theses women must be more careful with kitchen appliances...Good grief, leaving a kitchen scale in the workshop....What next? ... Good thing I found it and tested it.....)

I have installed the flywheels in their final positions, this entailed making a 100mm shaft extension on the IP side to cater for crank starting (there are a few pics of it in the link I sent earlier.). While I was at it, I made and installed a gib key retainer for the other side as well. The extension and the retainer are cutoffs from the wrecked crankshaft of TM1 - Nothing, or very little, goes to waste around here if I can help it!!

TM2 now weighs in at around 700kg I would guess, next task is to re-site him to the larger gantry I put up earlier in the year. this will give me a little more peace of mind when I start doing the upper areas and final assembly - I will be able to move him around comfortably without taking bits on and off...

Keep it spinning....

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #442 on: November 24, 2016, 01:21:56 PM »
Hey Guys...

Another minor update...

The wheels are locked in place, 2-up on each side, the timing marks have been measured and marked out as well... I have thinned the IP banjo bolt head and left a small point on the center, this lines up with my new markings for timing the beast when I get it up and going. I have made a silly little mod to the IP pump rack, tapped a 5mm hole in the RHS to fit a spring return/rack limiter - This I will design on the fly and install a bit later when I get a chance... (ie I am still "considering the options")

The return spring on the rack will be a small spring, pulling the rack closed, just enough to overcome the gravity of the attached links, should a clevis decide to de-bus... It will also put the entire governor linkage system under a very mild closing tension - this will effectively negate any "slop" in the linkage system.... In my opinion, a far better way than tightening up all hinge points to aerospace tolerances (which will bind as soon as any dirt enters the equation....)

Pics here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods  (You will have to scratch thru the pics, I will put them all into their correct categories and folders at a later stage....)

I have also trial fitted and measured a few things in the cylinder upper department - The Liner protrusion is around 6 thou, the piston crown TDC to top of liner measured around .... oops, lost it... (I did measure it.... and it was lower than the liner), which is all I need to know at this stage until I do the squish setup!

I did wind the beast over a few times to see how the compression is looking and how it will fare with starting on the double flywheel setup... With the CC Plug only finger tight, no injector line connected, winding it up and dropping the de-compressor resulted in a mild combustion event from the little bit of residual assembly oil in the top end... Happiness is!!

Right, time to reinstall the IP and start thinking about the rack limiter/spring return.....

Keep it puffing...

Cheers
Ed

Edit: Just slapped the IP back on the beast.... Similar problems to TM1 when I was setting him up.... The IP rack only opens up to about 1/2 or 3/4 way under governor control... looks like I am in for a bit of flyweight reshaping in the immediate future....... I am hesitant to move/shim the camshaft in or out, the gears et al are in perfect alignment as he now stands.... Strictly speaking, I could leave the IP max opening where it is... For a 10mm element, I seldom, if ever use full rack for power...but...If I reduce to a 8 or even 6mm element, he will need all the rack I can give him!!
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 01:54:07 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #443 on: November 25, 2016, 07:41:11 AM »
Hey Guys,

Re-shaped the governor flyweights... One downside of dual flywheels.... Twice the work to remove them!!

It all went smoothly, there is now much more rack travel, it comes to within about 1/8" of full rack - I would like a bit more, but to do that I would have to probably move the camshaft a bit towards the IP, of this I am hesitant, as it will mean I would have to do a whole lot of in and out to keep the timing gears et al in 100% mesh... Lets see how he does like he is!!

Interestingly, the governor assembly as a whole was taken out and washed in solvent to remove dirt and casting debris a while back...When I took it apart, clean though it was, I felt gritty afterwards.... On closer inspection, the weights were coated with sand on their inner surfaces, not a lot, but enough to feel powdery once they had been handled.... They would have issued a slow release of grit into the system over a long period - Perfect for running in out bearing surfaces.... A quick trip over a rotary wire brush after carving them up and a bath in the parts sprayer was in order.... Dodged a bullet on this one.... Something to possibly keep in mind!! (Reminds me of the saying I heard a while back: "Fear not the bullet with your name on.... Be concerned with the grenade addressed: To Whom it May Concern!!")

Overall, comparing the amount of grit in TM1 to TM2, they are worlds apart.... TM1 had little if any, TM2 probably a few pounds removed by now!! Same manufacturer, same model, same supplier.... Consistently inconsistent!!

Keep it crunching....

Cheers
Ed

PS - Have I bored you all to tears as yet? Or should I keep on trying to?
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #444 on: November 25, 2016, 09:01:05 AM »
Hi Glort,

I have just been sitting back and thinking.... (A dangerous thing, it usually gets me into sh!t later!!!)

Maybe, just maybe, their production is not really consistently inconsistent... There is a VERY strong possibility that based on all the problems we on the forum have all had with sand in the innards to various degrees, that ALL if the India made engines have this problem.... There is also a very strong chance, that those who do not have the problems actually do have them, just unnoticed...

I take for example my own circumstance - TM1 was pressed into service almost immediately. He was given a cursory inspection and check over, no loose crap to any large degree was left lying around in his sump that I saw. He did have a bearing failure, butr that was directly attributable to a lube oil pipe sawing itself up and spitting itself straight into the big end, so not sand...

Now, TM1 has around 3k or so hours on him, the bulk of the work and pissing around has been on his upper section and IP side... Little done on the lower with the exception of the addition of an oil filter... When TM2 is in operation, I think I am going to do a full tear down of TM1 and go over him with a fine tooth comb (Hammer, chisel, descaler included...)

I am actually of the opinion, no, I am almost certain, that the sand I didn't see, or find previously, is actually there, just hidden away and inert...(at the moment)...

One would expect, after about a k hrs of running and more, that the crap would continue to show in the oil...Something I haven't seen when changing it.

I think that Mr Lister had a really good think about these beasts when he put pen to paper... I also think that his rather clever designs are of the ilk that they allow for the crap to settle out rather than recirculate as it would do in a more modern design... This allows for a way greater tolerance than we come to expect from modern manufacturing methods..

ie - Do you think it would be possible to run a modern engine after a top end seize? If so, for how long? Well let me give an indication: I have had lube mishaps on one car and 2 bikes in the past lots of years - one instance allowed me to get home before it died completely, the other 2 were totaled... Now, TM1 had an upper seize a couple of weeks back...Solid! I eventually got him turning over (I wont recount how, you guys would evict me from the forum) and after topping up the oil, he is still running...About 60hrs run time since the seize....Loads haven't changed...Oil hasn't been changed either....Interesting!!

It is certainly going to be entertaining to strip him down in the future for a rebuild.... I think that a lot of our clean out work is a little "over the top" for what is required... Granted, a clean engine internally is a great thing to have, it might live a little longer, who knows..... But.... Enough said!! (Let the flaming begin!!)

Keep on flaming....

Cheers
Ed

Edit: Just did a valve/rocker alignment job - Also trimmed the rocker shaft by 1/8" each side and made up some different shaft springs... Cut and thinned the heads of the rocker fixing shaft bolts down by 1/8" each as well... Made a heavy duty lifting bracket that can now be bolted onto the diagonal bolts on the head for lifting him, without having to piss around and take the rockers off each time to do it too.... Much easier and quicker. (Yes, I know the lifting eye looks a little flimsy, but my reckoning is that if it was ok on a 2 metric ton rated chain block, 800 to 1000kg of TM2 shouldn't be a problem!)...Pics here:  http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods (Towards the end of the list, under today's date.)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 03:18:57 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

dieselgman

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #445 on: November 25, 2016, 03:29:29 PM »
I will always remember inspecting a 6/1 I once saw operating in India. It was sitting on the ground belt driving a large cement mixer drum in a huge pile of dirt and sand debris. No air filter, dirty looking fuel from a plastic bottle, apparently no concern over the mountain of crap it was almost buried in. Barefoot people scurrying around filling and dumping the mortar from the machine. The local guys I was traveling with said "who cares ?, they always keep working!" Further to this anecdote, I have heard from a number of credible sources that the local Indian markets use the worst stuff from their production in country and export their best quality.

So, in a nutshell, many of us have been experienced and trained on modern engine technology with pressure-fed oil systems and fairly tight parts tolerances, high levels of quality control required... this background and expectation does not necessarily translate accurately across the board to the antique engine designs and their design tolerances.

Give me a good original Dursley machine any day, take good care of it, and I will expect it to be around for my great grandchildren or beyond. But if I could not afford that luxury, then a close copy would still probably outlast me in this world.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 03:34:32 PM by dieselgman »
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Hugh Conway

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #446 on: November 25, 2016, 09:36:27 PM »

Maybe these machines are a lot tougher and forgiving than we Westerners imagine.
Check out this youtube..........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY4hgSj3bAw
A listeroid, not an original Dursley.
Operating in a dusty environment
Air filter.........none
Exhaust pipe.......none
Cooling system......none
Note the valve gear cover securely bolted down, probably never lubed under there.

Could the inclusion of intake grit and casting sand in the crankcase be a feature, not a bug? The grit/sand might open up operating clearances so it won't otherwise seize up..........well, perhaps.......

Cheers,
Hugh
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Tom

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #447 on: November 25, 2016, 10:45:02 PM »
Perhaps it's burning the plant fiber too and what doesn't burn seals the valves and rings. It does appear to be using an evaporative cooling 'system'.
Tom
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gusbratz

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #448 on: November 26, 2016, 03:49:28 AM »
he says down in the comments that it only runs for a few minutes to chop enough feed for the cow and buffalo.  so they didn't bother with a cooling system.

vdubnut62

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Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #449 on: November 26, 2016, 05:23:24 AM »
I bought a tecumseh powered air cooled mower from a lady at a yard sale for $2 US. She said it was run dry of oil and locked up. I gave it a nudge and it moved so I went home and changed oil in it a couple times and still couldn't get all the glitter out of the crankcase. I poured a quart and a half of gas in it shook it rolled it over and over drained it, and repeated with diesel a couple times. I refilled that thing with some kind of parasynthetic wally world oil and mowed and trimmed with it for years. Also the Wife could start it. I finally hit something with it a couple years ago and bent the crank. No one knows how to straighten a lawnmower crank anymore so I figured I had gotten my money's worth and recycled it.
Ron.
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