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Author Topic: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications  (Read 291805 times)

EdDee

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Hey Tom,

Agreed re the loop through on the CS Plug... My resistance to doing that is simply that with WMO burning, there comes times, usually in the worst weather, late in the evening, that I will have to pull the injector to de-foul it... using the "heatsink" method, one fitting to loosen on the fuel system, hence less chance of leakage... A weak reason, but valid nevertheless (for me anyway...Lol...) In the dark, with rain pelting, the fewer leakable couplings to do, the better...

A further, possibly more valid reason for me anyway, is being able to adjust the temp of the fuel by the amount of lagging installed on the heat couple... I dont know what temp will be best yet, so this allows for a bit of playing.... and I do like playing!! ... Lol..

Regds
Ed

12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Hey Ron,

The deposits could be....who knows? A mate of mine works as a tech for a large university not too far from here.... I think I might just mail him a sample and see if he can get a mass spec done on it.... Hopefully they wont come lock me up for trying to mail an ominous white powder in a plain envelope...... :police: :police: :police:

Thanks for the comps on the exchanger... the flattening of the tubes was not initially intended, water filled and rolled they started to flatten... I checked the flow resistance through them while working on it and although it will cause a bit of back pressure on the hot water system under full stream, I will still be restricting the flow a bit more on the regulator valve anyway.... Still gotta pressure test the coil and look for pinholes... Hold thumbs... Picture the scene... Exchanger installed, drawing off heat beautifully... I wonder why the coolant keeps overflowing...... Duhh....

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Hey Guys,

The Hot (cylinder) Head tests continue....Feedback:

Ran up thumper from cold this morning, started out at about 8C and allowed it to run for a few minutes without major load....about 5mins in all.... the temp climbed quickly and the thermosyphon cycle started up fine... No major localized heating, no boil off, all fine.... Once partially warmed up, went to full daily load and things worked great.... It seems that the trick is to allow it to fluidize the coolant fully to allow it to circulate efficiently! Once done, all is well....

Lets see if this beast can start stably everyday if a few small rules are followed....

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

buickanddeere

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Temperatures of 212-230 even 240F doesn't cause damage as long as the coolant stays liquid and without steam/vapour bubbles or pockets . Trouble starts even if the outlet temp is 180F if there is coolant jacket locally over heated because vapour/steam is a lousy conductor of heat vs liquid water/glycol .

EdDee

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Thanks b&d,

Noted! Many a block has been wrecked by that I bet! My aim is to get things cycling as reliably, easy and warm as possible with no vapour pockets...  Sounds easy, but it isn't as we all know!

I might have to drop the temp on the radiator thermo switch a tad to allow for slightly more cooling on the radiator side, which in turn will give slightly better coolant turnover, better temperature gradient et al...

Quite easy to do now... just part off a few mm on the heatsink and temps drop a bit.... Or cover a few fins with some thermal insulation to allow faster temp transfer to the switch... but will give it a couple of days first to check the trend.....

Overall it is performing satisfactorily, but there is a few degrees increase in temp when the shed doors are closed... running this close to boiling gives little leeway for error... not a good thing...

Regds
Ed

PS.. one thing I did notice this morning was a lack of coolant in the overflow resevoir when cold.... nothing was spilt, I was running at a level I previously set for water/coolant mix... it appears that the glycol has a much larger expansion ratio than the mix.... alarming... and something to keep an eye on too....
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 09:11:30 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Hi Guys,

The thump monster started fine this morning, coolant was a little low, but still covering the outlet so I didn't worry about topping it up... After a few mins of warm up, just enough to get the outlet pipe warm, not hot, to the top of the radiator, I switched on the daily load... All has behaved perfectly, when the motor is fully warmed up, the coolant level is at the "normal" top mark... Nothing to worry about so far....

I think I am still going to reduce the fan switch temperature by a bit.... Just to give a small safety factor in case loads go heavy or timing goes out a tad and the monster decides to turn oil into heat without using the flywheels......

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Hey Guys,

Day Next of the Hot-Head Trials:

All started fine this morning, ran a lot of water through it yesterday, water flow was set to the mid-high flow rate - No condensation on the CC breather too.

With the higher head temp I am able to run much more water through the inlet on a continuous basis with no condensing steam evident out of the exhaust port indicator(The exhaust port indicator is a highly technical, specially shaped port to monitor exhaust emissions at the cylinder exhaust port outlet - it consists primarily of a cracked exhaust flange that I have not had a chance to repair yet......)

All is running well, head outlet temps are still stable in the high 90C to low 100C range, no boil off either with high glycol content cooling....

Lets see what the day brings!!

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed

12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Hey Glort,

A little update for you.... With the higher head temperature, I was able to double the the water input for decarboning things... It amounted to a measured 2/3 of a liter for a few minutes at a time, up to around 5 minutes each.... This flashed off heavy carbon deposits in the IDI chamber and piston top (and coated everything with soot in the near vicinity...but the story about the washing line will be relegated to another forum....)

I am maintaining my previous water setting for normal running, it holds most of the deposits at bay, with a VERY slow buildup over a period of time... Easily flashed off with a heavy water feed, especially timed to coincide with washday....... Did I just say that? ::) ::)

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Hey Guys,

A 2-day update for you!!

Yesterday started with no problems, thump monster behaved well and started heat syphoning perfectly... What I have found, is the most convenient way to get things going from cold... Check oil and coolant, spin her up with no load, leave her ticking over while I blend fuel and fill the day tank, cut over to the load once done and all is well..... Unless......!

Unless you are processing fuel(5kw full resistive load working the monster hard) and...... Unless you have a SE breeze going, just a light one, and it dams up the heat in the genshed(the heat outlets are on the S side of the shed) ... Interesting things begin to happen while you are not watching... the gremlins creep in and piss coolant on the inside of the shed after drinking it out of the overflow!!

Easily solved - Removed one heat-sink section from the thermal switch on the radiator, filled the tank with more glycol (Ouch...$$$)....and kept it all spinning...

Head temps are a little reduced now, not what I wanted, but I am way happier that there is a bit of a safety margin....Hopefully the pre-heating of the fuel will make up for the reduced temp....

Goes to show, as you get ahead in the rat-race..... Someone turns up with a faster rat!!

This weekend I should be able to finish off the heating doo-dah for the fuel line, I will post pics of it when done. If all goes well, I might just finish up the heat-ex for the radiator inlet line too....

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 09:04:34 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Hey Glort,

Agreed re the "too much of a good thing" approach.... Too much for too long will cock things up, I am sure... I am holding excessive carbon back mainly in the ring department - As soon as I see too much gas bypass, black smoke or blue smoke, thump monster gets a wash!! To much bypass=sticky rings, blue smoke=stuck oil control ring, black smoke=crap on injector tip.... usually a goods wash sorts them out.... the injector has a 50/50 chance of blowing clean, occasionally its really stubborn and needs a pull out and brush off....

I am heating the fuel line as it goes into the injector now - my logic says to me that if the fuel is hotter, its thinner... Most of my problems have been fuel viscosity related I think, note... "Think"... Anything tried is something to cross off the list... I found that with 40-50W fuel oil, atomisation was a biaaatch and she ran very smokey as soon as loads were applied.... Thin it out a bit with dino, at a 3:1 ratio WMO:Dino and things run much better... My aim is to try and get this beast running solely on sump gunk if I can.... Lets see how it works out....

Here are some pics of the fuel preheater - its not neatened up yet, but is fully functional, just need to lag it a bit to keep as much heat inside it as I can....

Pics are at: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Fuel and Injector Heater/

Its an easy mod to do, so barring the cost of an injector line, nuts, brass bar, a little gas and silver solder, the actual job is quite tiny... If it works well, it might just make somebody's life a bit easier....

Anyways.... Enough of my rambling....

Keep it spinning!!

Regds
Ed

PS.. I am not worried about incoming oil temp to the IP, a bit of positive head pressure does wonders there... the heater is solely to try and get better atomisation of the fuel at the injector by thinning it down with heat as much as is possible... I noticed an interesting phenomenon that put me onto this path. The injector well in the head on my Beastie is normally quite clean with little oil lying in it... without thinking, a few days back, I accidentally over oiled the rockers quite extensively... so much that the well was filled with oil... I won't mention how it happened, but suffice it to say that no squirt oil can was used.... the interesting thing I noted was with the oil present, the injector was much hotter to the touch and things seemed to be burning a bit better.... can't say if it was imagination or fact... let's see what transpires with the preheater in place....

« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 09:28:48 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Hey Guys,

Another 2 day update on "barbie for boys" ... otherwise known as dressing up a Listeroid!

Yesterday, after seeing how the beast was running on virtually straight WMO, I ran the day tank empty and filled it up with 30L of sump gunk... She ran fine, albeit just a tad smokier than usual, so all appears well... or at least as well as can be with the cr@p I am feeding her...

Today, after shutting down on WMO last night, she was quite hard to start, this was expected, as the gunk needs a bit of pre-warming before it atomises properly.... No major problem, the starter is 100% duty cycle rated and powered by utility power, or donkey screamer power.... I am trying to avoid a Dino shutdown and startup if I can at all help it... and so far it seems OK....

In an effort to get as much heat to the injector/fuel that I can, I have changed the bolt holding the brass preheater to the CS plug from MS to a brass stud, bottoming in the threaded hole in the CS plug which is around 40mm deep.. This immediadely made a felt difference to the preheat temp, I guess about 10C or so... pics can be seen here... http://WWW.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/IDI Chamber Brass Bolt and Lagging/

This seems to have bettered combustion a bit, once warmed up obviously...  unfortunately, with the lagging installed, I cannot get any real temp reading on it, but suffice it to say, its HOT....

Later today I will throw some more waste oil in the processor and wind up the heater on it... that gives it around a 5kw demand resistive from the thump monster, I will let u all know how it behaves....

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 12:34:25 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Hey Guys,

It was an interesting day yesterday indeed....(Ancient Chinese curse: May you live in interesting times.....)

Thump monster has started to ail..... I suspect that the exhaust is in need of a good decarboning, in fact I am certain of it! Monster ran reasonably well, but power was definitely down, it was only able to make 80% of the design power on the WMO while processing fuel.... I can tell by the exhaust sound that there are a few "restrictions" in the flow... Gone is the crisp sound at tail end, now a subtle thump.... Engine temps are up in the uncomfortably high areas and the output power is down. Putting this in perspective though, this is near enough 1600Hrs at last count, only major failure experienced was the head gasket which gave trouble from day one... No real decarboning has been done on the engine internals or head/exhaust, barring a minor bit of crown scraping to measure squish when the head gasket was replaced. Only other decarboning that I can remember doing on a semi regular basis has been the injector tip....

Of interest is the fact that at low head temperature, exhaust carbon buildup seemed to be able to be "flushed" with a heavy water injection run. With the higher head temps, the carbon buildup seems to be of harder and more dense nature - WI does not loosen it so easily. It may be co-incidental that the power drop off/performance loss occurred simultaneously with the use of WMO straight run, but I think not. I am under the impression that the exhaust was partially clogged pre starting the heavy WMO run, and the additional carbon/ash expelled in a higher concentration did a buildup trick way faster than expected.

Coinciding with this buildup is the fact that the "trials" are about to draw to an end. This engine has been used as a test bed, to see what I can throw at it, the mods required to keep it running, the reliability of the unit, the repair and attention required to keep it ticking over too....

Lets see what the day brings....

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed

PS - Latest update... I am now processing the final batch of fuel for what looks to be the year - It consists of 90% reclaimed diesel with drum washings from the WMO drums and processing plant making up the last 10% - This last 60 to 70 L will go into the last drum of de-watered sump-gunk for the last bit of fuel I will be running it on before I decarbon the plumbing system. Interestingly, today the power is slightly up on yesterday, if anything, I would have expected the warm weather (around 27C air temp) to have caused a bit of a power drop from yesterday... Goes to show, interesting times...

The performance/power has dropped now to below 4kw - 3.9kw to be precise - The original design spec was a nominal 4-5kw targeting 5kw if possible. This power output was largely attained, with the engine and genhead in "new" condition.... Peak instantaneous power of around 7.5kw is available from inertia store, but the sustained power output of 5kw is no longer possible - in rough figures, this would equate to around 10hp at the flywheel. Currently, it is running around the 8hp mark, or just under, giving an output of 3.9kw sustained max.

To recap - the engine has been down-rated from 1000rpm to 750rpm, at best it would be able to deliver(by estimate) around 2/3 to 3/4 of the design output of 12hp - ie 8 to 9Hp... so, in all, its still not doing too badly!

The unit is able to start and run on 100% WMO - Do I think its worth it? .... Possibly.... Yes.... if you have an unlimited supply of *free* fuel - this will cost you though, in time and effort - cleaning the fuel/finding the right injection timing to suit your batch of fuel(the timing required does change depending on the make up of the fuel...)/Setting up a water injection system to hold carbon deposits at bay/setting up an injector pre-heater for more efficient burn... and above all, getting the most out of the fuel you can by reclaiming exhaust heat/radiator heat as well....

Is it a lot of work... Yes.... Is it ongoing work.... Yes .... Is it a system that you can leave to the missus to run while you are away.... probably no... (but its one hell of a conversation piece with all sorts of fun!!)

Is it a viable alternative to on-grid living? ....


My opinion.....


Wait for it...


NO.... (Not if you have all the resources at your doorstep and the costs are not exorbitant....)


Is it viable to off-grid living? ....


My opinion.....


Wait for it...


YES .... (Damn....Have I been standing to close to the exhaust and inhaling too many fumes?)


If there is no grid connection for you, if you are out in the backwoods/desert/middle of bugger all and your day consists of trying to stay alive and make yourself a little more comfy for the cold night ahead.... This could be a viable way of doing it... Cheap too if you have access to WMO/WVO that people are begging to get rid of... The actual maintenance on these units is reasonably straight forward, only basic tools are required and if you know what you are getting into and can make provision for it, this is probably a way to go about it.. As a straight genhead, not worth it - as a cogen system, definitely worth it.... as a sole source of energy.... get 2... for the day you break an arm/leg and cant go and attend to the daily running chores... If possible, run it hard for a short period and use some form of energy storage to keep you going the other 22hrs of the day.... In suburbia, retrofitting the average power-hungry household....well... only you can decide.....

« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 03:29:04 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

dieselspanner

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Hi Ed

A thread well worth following.

As Mr Prachett said "Wisdom comes from experience, experience is often a result of lack of wisdom"

Looks like I'm going to benefit from all of yours, my 6/1 cylinder head, the last bit of the refurb, got back from the machine shop in the UK today.

Thanks for sharing the results of all your efforts.

Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

Tom

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Those are pretty much the conclusions I came to during my WMO experiments. Thanks for sharing.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

EdDee

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Hey Tom and Stef,

Hope u guys had some interesting reading! It was fun writing it as I was doing it, something that I didn't get a chance to do way back when...

Stef, I have always maintained, when a person is born, they get issued with two buckets... one is labled "luck" and is full.... the other is labled "experience" and its empty... the trick is to finish your life, ending up with a full bucket of experience and just a little luck left over!

Tom, I was actually well aware, maybe well is too familiar a term, let's say I was pretty sure as to what the outcome would be, but nowhere that I saw, was there a reasonably well documented log of events that was relatively easy to read,  particularly for the newbie who knows little technically, but has the zest and gumption to want to give it a try... There are oodles of very technical articles that would scare the beginner away just from the length of words used... I hope I have put together some entertaining reading in the log that will encourage newer peeps to the diesel hobby world to  actually pull finger out of rear orifice and stop talking about it and "go do it" ... in all the playing around, unless you do something really silly, like no oil or coolant, rev the guts out of it or try and run it on nitroglycerine, these engines will be tolerant and forgiving... they will let you know (generally) well before they break by waving the smoke/rattle/boil flag.... if you keep running it while its warning you things are going awry, well, it will become an expensive mistake.....

As you might have noticed, this is not the first diesel I have played with, but it certainly is the first low revving single I have played with in many, many years...  The first single I cut my teeth on was way back in the late 60 early 70`s, I was knee high to a grasshopper then... I got a crash course from an old farm hand whose job it was to keep the green machine running ... it was pretty much his full time job... That is what originally opened my eyes to the tolerance these machines had to unskilled maintenance... The workbench was a sand floor and parts got wiped off before getting reassembled if they were lucky...

Its been good fun doing the mods, on a reactive and proactive basis, some things just need to be better, like governors, and balancing of course, and some things just need to be changed if you play around with "funny" fuels...

I am probably going to scrounge around for some more WMO to play with... so you haven't heard the last of me yet I don't think... I will keep Thump Monster running for a while yet, but not as much as I have... it has been running at least 10 to 15 hours a day so far, without a break... with the exception of one weekend in August when I went away for a hunting expedition...I will probably cut run time down to around 4 hours a day just for shits and giggles... it has become a bit of a "landmark" over the last few months and I wouldnt like to disappoint the neighbours... Lol....

As a waste oil disposal tool, I don't think you can beat it! Especially when the by products are hot water and a nice rhythmic beat... the number of mates that stop and visit, go silent, close other eyes and remark "this reminds me of......" These things are memories, long forgotten, that a simple machine brings back.... Money just can't buy.....

Anyways.... Enough of my rambling....

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed


12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!