Lister Gen set 50 cycle to 60 cycle

[981]

I would like to purchase an original Lister slow speed water-cooled CS or CD direct drive generator set.

My question is because Great Britain is 50-cycle power and USA is 60 cycles could this be changed to work, I was told to simply increase the RPM by 200

Maybe my only hope is the belt drive model and the change pulley diameters.

Any ideas?

Thank you,
Rudy 

   

[Thob]

The frequency output by a generator is determined by the number of poles and RPM.  The number of poles is determined by the design of the generator; 2 or 4 poles is most common, sometimes 6 or more poles are available.  (There is always an even number of poles). The formula is

Frequency = #poles * RPM / 120

So for USA 60 Hz, you need a 2 pole generator at 3600 RPM or 4 pole at 1800 RPM.
For GB at 50 Hz, 2 pole at 3000 RPM or 4 pole at 1500 RPM.

Lister CS or CD are going to turn around 650 RPM, so I don't think it's going to work as direct drive.  (I don't know of anybody who makes a 12 pole generator to run at 600 RPM).   Lister did make later engines that would run at 1500/1800 RPM and could be used direct drive.  Most people that I know of use belt drive on a CS with the proper pulley sizes to make it work.  A common situation is to run a serpentine automotive belt on the flywheel (no grooves) and use a proper size groove pulley on the generator.

I seem to recall a direct drive Lister CS but the output was rectified to DC to charge a battery so frequency wasn't important.

[BruceM]

Someone hand made an axial wind motor type generator for direct drive at 600 rpm on a CS, I believe.  Had a lovely voluptuous sine output.  It might have been at fieldlines.com.  Very custom, not for the typical DIYer.

Belt drive as Lister did it is the easier approach, and converting a 50Hz set to 60Hz is something that's been done many times.

[981]

The frequency output by a generator is determined by the number of poles and RPM.  The number of poles is determined by the design of the generator; 2 or 4 poles is most common, sometimes 6 or more poles are available.  (There is always an even number of poles). The formula is

Frequency = #poles * RPM / 120

So for USA 60 Hz, you need a 2 pole generator at 3600 RPM or 4 pole at 1800 RPM.
For GB at 50 Hz, 2 pole at 3000 RPM or 4 pole at 1500 RPM.

Lister CS or CD are going to turn around 650 RPM, so I don't think it's going to work as direct drive.  (I don't know of anybody who makes a 12 pole generator to run at 600 RPM).   Lister did make later engines that would run at 1500/1800 RPM and could be used direct drive.  Most people that I know of use belt drive on a CS with the proper pulley sizes to make it work.  A common situation is to run a serpentine automotive belt on the flywheel (no grooves) and use a proper size groove pulley on the generator.

I seem to recall a direct drive Lister CS but the output was rectified to DC to charge a battery so frequency wasn't important.

[981]

Thank you for your help

Rudy

The frequency output by a generator is determined by the number of poles and RPM.  The number of poles is determined by the design of the generator; 2 or 4 poles is most common, sometimes 6 or more poles are available.  (There is always an even number of poles). The formula is

Frequency = #poles * RPM / 120

So for USA 60 Hz, you need a 2 pole generator at 3600 RPM or 4 pole at 1800 RPM.
For GB at 50 Hz, 2 pole at 3000 RPM or 4 pole at 1500 RPM.

Lister CS or CD are going to turn around 650 RPM, so I don't think it's going to work as direct drive.  (I don't know of anybody who makes a 12 pole generator to run at 600 RPM).   Lister did make later engines that would run at 1500/1800 RPM and could be used direct drive.  Most people that I know of use belt drive on a CS with the proper pulley sizes to make it work.  A common situation is to run a serpentine automotive belt on the flywheel (no grooves) and use a proper size groove pulley on the generator.

I seem to recall a direct drive Lister CS but the output was rectified to DC to charge a battery so frequency wasn't important.

[981]

Thank you for your help

Rudy

Someone hand made an axial wind motor type generator for direct drive at 600 rpm on a CS, I believe.  Had a lovely voluptuous sine output.  It might have been at fieldlines.com.  Very custom, not for the typical DIYer.

Belt drive as Lister did it is the easier approach, and converting a 50Hz set to 60Hz is something that's been done many times.

[981]

OK I think 50Hz would not be a problem my electric clock would run a little slower.

So I think 50Hz for the most part would be compatible with my 60Hz,
 However, could I get 110 volts AC out of a UK Lister generator set?

Thank you
Rudy

The frequency output by a generator is determined by the number of poles and RPM.  The number of poles is determined by the design of the generator; 2 or 4 poles is most common, sometimes 6 or more poles are available.  (There is always an even number of poles). The formula is

Frequency = #poles * RPM / 120

So for USA 60 Hz, you need a 2 pole generator at 3600 RPM or 4 pole at 1800 RPM.
For GB at 50 Hz, 2 pole at 3000 RPM or 4 pole at 1500 RPM.

Lister CS or CD are going to turn around 650 RPM, so I don't think it's going to work as direct drive.  (I don't know of anybody who makes a 12 pole generator to run at 600 RPM).   Lister did make later engines that would run at 1500/1800 RPM and could be used direct drive.  Most people that I know of use belt drive on a CS with the proper pulley sizes to make it work.  A common situation is to run a serpentine automotive belt on the flywheel (no grooves) and use a proper size groove pulley on the generator.

I seem to recall a direct drive Lister CS but the output was rectified to DC to charge a battery so frequency wasn't important.

[BruceM]

You can adjust the voltage coming out of the generator by fiddling with it's excitation system, whatever that is (varies by manufacturer and model), or by using a modern AVR or automatic voltage regulator as an add on.  The frequency is adjusted by changing the rotation speed of the generator via pulley change or by changing the speed of the engine. 

You need to study a bit more about generator heads and such before tackling this, or find a local person who is knowledgeable and can help you. 

Most 60Hz equipment such as motors, lighting, electronics will run on 50Hz if you don't care to change the speed of the engine or pulleys.

[981]

Thank you BruceM

it looks like the 50Hz won't be any trouble
next if I can get 110 to 120 volts I'll be in the market 

You can adjust the voltage coming out of the generator by fiddling with it's excitation system, whatever that is (varies by manufacturer and model), or by using a modern AVR or automatic voltage regulator as an add on.  The frequency is adjusted by changing the rotation speed of the generator via pulley change or by changing the speed of the engine. 

You need to study a bit more about generator heads and such before tackling this, or find a local person who is knowledgeable and can help you. 

Most 60Hz equipment such as motors, lighting, electronics will run on 50Hz if you don't care to change the speed of the engine or pulleys.

[BruceM]

Raising the voltage from 110 to 120 is not a big deal, anyone familiar with the generator head you get can help you with that.  Every generator head has some way of doing this.

[mike90045]

.... I was told to simply increase the RPM by 200 .....

Ouch.  Please don't change the engine RPM that much, even well made flywheels will be severely stressed. If one breaks up, it's a real nightmare

Better way is to change pulley size on the alternator.   Or depending on what your load is, if it's not a frequency critical load, 50Hz could be just fine.

[981]

Thanks BruceM,
That is Good news!
Rudy

Raising the voltage from 110 to 120 is not a big deal, anyone familiar with the generator head you get can help you with that.  Every generator head has some way of doing this.

[981]

Yes Mike,

I'm really not concerned with the 50hz  cycle(can live with that)
 as I am with being able to get it the 110 to 120 volt range .

Thanks Rudy

.... I was told to simply increase the RPM by 200 .....

Ouch.  Please don't change the engine RPM that much, even well made flywheels will be severely stressed. If one breaks up, it's a real nightmare

Better way is to change pulley size on the alternator.   Or depending on what your load is, if it's not a frequency critical load, 50Hz could be just fine.

[buickanddeere]

Dial the govenor up for 120% above the 50Hz rpms.

[DirtbikePilot]

Or you could just add a second belt driven generator. That's the route I chose and only use the original generator for starting. Its been working well for over 2 years now.