Author Topic: Another 6/1 Restoration  (Read 70852 times)

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #225 on: May 23, 2018, 08:33:53 AM »
Your smoke n the video seems to look a bit blueish- so I'd bet on ring seating or excess splash oil.

I'm also a  MB 300D owner/driver.  Matching pop pressure/pattern for it is quite helpful to engine smoothness.  A DIY grease gun pop tester worked well for me.

I doubt if it is oil burning - but I can't eliminate the possibility totally with the low engine hours.

My dad used to have a '79 300D natural aspirated - drove it for years but he let it go 18 years ago and replaced it with a C180. Still remeber that car very well.. He always had the injectors, timing and tappets perfect but it took a bit of effort to maintain. The petrol burners are just so much easier to live with.

Thanks to the Merc I have a proper injector tester. I would love to see how your make-do tester works.

They never brought them out here so mine being NA was woefully slow, even to the point of being dangerous I felt.   

South Africa also missed out on the W123 turbo models... so I know exactly what you are talking about - and to think we thought the 300 was fast compared to the 240 we had!!  :D

The W124 6 cylinder was turbocharged. One saw very few of them on the roads. Always wondered if they were any good? The W123s are very comfortable rides and totally indestructable. The 240D is still with the people who bought it from my dad (30 years ago??). The engine was redone at some point, but it's got hundreds of thousands of farmroad kilometres on it. Just for interest sake - The 240D is basically identical to the 300D with basically just one cylinder chopped off.
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

glort

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #226 on: May 23, 2018, 12:36:17 PM »

I drove a 240 once.
 I thought the 300 was dangerously slow, by the same token I thought the 240 was a suicide machine.  The one I drove was in pristine condition but I was convinced there was something very amiss with it.  Seemed a lot more to me than missing 1/5th of the 300 power. I was looking for the rope attached to the parked car it was dragging behind it. I believe in europe there was a sport/ performance version that was turboed and was a reasonably quick car.
Takes some believing but I have seen pictures!

A guy I got very friendly with through the local Veg forum was a very specialised aircraft Mechanic who worked on Militarily turbines. He bought a 300D that had broken a cam.
He rebuilt the engine " His way"  and when he took me for a ride, I was convinced it was a gee up and he'd planted some hotted up 6Cyl petrol engine in the thing.  I could tell it wasn't an 8 but stuff me, did this thing go! The first ride was actually with 3 other guys in the car as well and none of us were exactly 5ft tall or anorexic and this thing flew. Literally Chirped the tyres and broke traction from 1st to 2nd.

We were waiting to see what was under the bonnet and couldn't believe it when we saw the exact engine that should be there. We went over it looking for a Nitrous  injection or something to explain the incredible performance of the thing. Wasn't turboed and would have been still impressive if it was.
Mate just said it was all in knowing how to build a diesel and we could not argue with what he did with the thing. Only difference from stock we could tell was an aftermarket aircleaner and a bigger diameter exhaust although it still sounded much the same.

About a year after he did it, he wanted to sell it as his mrs thought it was too old and ugly. It was really a very nice example with a perfect interior. I put my hand up for it straight away but his father promised it to his cousin so I lost out.  Kid only had it about 4 months and of course put it into a pole.  Mate was pretty regretful he didn't sell it to me then.
I still can't explain how he got that thing to go like it did but geez the thing pulled hard.

I still look on fleabay for another 300D now and then. I'd turbo it so the thing went properly now I know a bit more about diesels but they are hard to find now and expensive when the emotionally attached owners offer them.
I still have the engine from my 300. My beloved " Helga" was rusted to the point of structurally unsound so got retired. The engine was still very good so I kept it for a boat or generator.
I have gone to sell it a number of times but somehow, I just can't.

I think that car was the cheapest and biggest heap of shit I ever owned due to it's condition but far and away the most beloved car I ever had. NEVER let me down even if there were the odd quick roadside repairs ( including a fire on the highway the brigade attended ) but she ALWAYS got us home..... even when friends much later and more expensive cars didn't due to not making it through the same flooded roads when following us.
" Helga"  was a part of our lives and the fun we had in it I'll never forget and is literally a chapter in my families lives.

Might just go Check fleabay again.......   :'(

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #227 on: June 06, 2018, 02:47:21 PM »
Some more experimentation results:
I have not yet had a chance to have the injector checked by a service centre for a second oppinion - so that and also the probability of the rings not fully seated are still factors not eliminated. What I did however find is the effect of Diesel sulphur content. Currently we have a choice between 10ppm, 50ppm and 500ppm. I tried all 3 and it seems like the 500ppm makes more smoke - but I'll need more playtime to reach a proven conclusion. What are your experiences with this? Also - the effect of sulphur content related to fuel lubricity, cetane- and calorific values seems as much debated and opinionated as any technical topic out there... so far my research has just helped me reach my own opinion! I am not too worried about fuel combustion performance - I am more interested to know what is best for the pump and injector. 30+ years ago Diesel probably had a sulphur ppm count of 3-5000!?  Should these older injection systems not be fed with some 2 stroke oil in the mix? Or is sulphur lubrication properties replaced well enough with alternative additives?

None of this is probably applicable to a CS as it won't even notice the difference. Only these modern DPF and AdBlue DEF systems would mind if they where fed some crude fuel  ::) but the theory behind it all is still interesting.
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

glort

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #228 on: June 06, 2018, 04:39:38 PM »

We don't get a choice here, it's all low Sulphur. How low I don't know.

Years ago I looked into the lubricity thing.  Our Diesel is as dry as can be. There are all sorts of additives but 2-stroke, Biodiesel and Veg oil are literally hundreds of times better than any of the commercial ( expensive) lubricity additives.  I saw a test done on a bunch of these miracles in a bottle along with Biodiesel added at 2%.  That was off the charts in the improvement it made. About 1/20th the price of the additives and about 100X better in what it does.  I can only Imagine what Veg and 2 stroke does as they are both higher in lubricity than Bio.

I personally feel uncomfortable running straight diesel in my Vehicles after years of veg. So far the only engine failure I have had in 15 years was when I ran out of Veg and put Diesel in the Vehicle.  Next Day, Bang.  Co incidence maybe but given the fact the vehicle would be lucky to run 20L of Diesel a year and the thing was running like a watch before, I don't think so.

I look at it like this, if you put a bit of oil or 2 stroke in your engine and it dosen't work, so what? You have lost nothing.  IF it does work, even to offset one IP or injector failure or rebuild, you are a long way ahead.

Smoke never worries me in the least as long as it's from a 2 stroke or a Diesel.  In this case some 2 stroke may reduce the smoke levels as it has additives to do that. It could also help with carbon buildup as it has additives designed to prevent that as well.

I just don't feel comfortable these days with straight Diesel. Adding some oil I think is very worth while and lets me feel more comfortable about the well being of my Diesels.

mike90045

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #229 on: June 07, 2018, 01:12:05 AM »
I use 2 stroke oil mixed with pump (low sulfur) diesel,  200:1

Sadly, bio diesel has gone away in my area, I can drive 30 miles and get some 20%, but it's not worth the bother.

glort

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #230 on: June 07, 2018, 06:42:28 AM »

Sadly, bio diesel has gone away in my area, I can drive 30 miles and get some 20%, but it's not worth the bother.

Yep same here.
Despite all the Fuss in it's heyday I only ever saw 20% that was imported from some dodgy South african source.  there was one guy selling 100% near the city He got from a country plant and he did do well with it for a while.  Sold out all he could get and I then supplies got very patchy and  when he did get things sorted again, the novelty had worn off for a lot of people.

Brother in law worked for a company that was running their fleet of trucks and loaders on the SA stuff. I told him it's dodgy, You'll have problems. Typically I was ignored and dismissed till after about 3 Months everything stopped working almost at the same time.
company was still sure it wasn't the fuel.  Righto then....

Cheap Cooking oil would make a fine lubrication additive and cheap as well. Used oil is every bit as good and cheaper still!  :0)

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #231 on: June 07, 2018, 08:21:25 PM »
I look at it like this, if you put a bit of oil or 2 stroke in your engine and it dosen't work, so what? You have lost nothing.  IF it does work, even to offset one IP or injector failure or rebuild, you are a long way ahead.

Smoke never worries me in the least as long as it's from a 2 stroke or a Diesel.  In this case some 2 stroke may reduce the smoke levels as it has additives to do that. It could also help with carbon buildup as it has additives designed to prevent that as well.

I just don't feel comfortable these days with straight Diesel. Adding some oil I think is very worth while and lets me feel more comfortable about the well being of my Diesels.

I also can't see any harm done by adding some 2SO to the Diesel. Even some engine oil will do just as well but that will definitely cause some smoking if overdosed. I had a VW Jetta 1.8 with Mechanical Bosch K-Jetronic CIS (Continuous injection system). I always added 2SO to the petrol. Never had a fuel pump failure again. The system had an accumilator to keep the whole system under pressure when switched off. If an injector started leaking the car would basically be flooded when starting. 2SO in the tank fixed those injectors and kept them happy. Proven over and over. With this experience nobody has to convince me to dump oil in the fuel!

We never had Biodiesel sold commercially here. Totally unheard of - until word did the rounds years ago that a massive Biodiesel plant was to be build. The huge hype around business oportunities and potential incomes got suddenly extinguished when the whole thing turned out to be a scam attempting to lure investors in... why do these people not invest this energy into something productive I'll never understand. I wonder if it ever would have worked anyway - the greenies where up in arms about the use of maize for fuel when hunger stares so many in the face --- never saw the upped maize production anayway...

The only Diesel quality problems was when Power Paraffin (Kerosene) was still produced by the local refineries. Some dodgy filling stations diluted the Diesel with this and caused lots of damage to pumps and injectors. When sticking to the busy branded filling stations this was however never an issue.

1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

Johndoh

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #232 on: June 07, 2018, 11:34:13 PM »
My 2 bobs worth on adding 2 stroke oil to diesel. It's automotive homeopathy the quantities are too small to make a difference. I tried an experiment with whiskey and water at 200:1 ratio it tasted like water to me!
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness

glort

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #233 on: June 08, 2018, 03:30:02 AM »
My 2 bobs worth on adding 2 stroke oil to diesel. It's automotive homeopathy the quantities are too small to make a difference. I tried an experiment with whiskey and water at 200:1 ratio it tasted like water to me!

It would only be ineffective if the ratios were too light. Everyone has their preferences and what they think is good.

I would tend to think 200:1 was a bit light on for me as well but then I have never seen the results of testing to confirm the difference it does make.
There are some rare engines that can run 100:1 2 stroke so running 200:1 in an engine that is not supposed to need any further lubrication of it's fuel system could make a worthwhile difference.

The least I have run is 50:1. 2L of veg in a 100L tank of diesel.

I used to play around with high performance 2 strokes and I used to shove as much oil in them as they were happy with and vary the ratio according to load.  If I knew the things were going to have their backside flogged out I'd load them up with as much as 12:1 oil/ fuel. If they were just going to be cruising round barely working a sweat, i'd mix the juice at 20:1.

The thing I found was if there wasn't oil dribbling out the pipe, it wasn't too much.  12:1 with the engine not working was too much but when the thing was screaming its head off and just below glowing, it was just right. About the only oil ratio I never used was the manufacturers one which was 25:1.
Way too lean for any of the engines I had built.

I must have done something right with it. Even after being flogged for 2 years I'll pull the things down and find absoloutley minimal wear in any part from the rings to the bearings to the bores. Slap them back together and have another look in another couple of years.  Funny enough the factory fresh engines never lasted this long on the recommended ratios people ran them.

My thoughts are that the friction in a mechanical IP is probably not going to be all that different to that of the bores in an engine. Therefore I want to have a similar amount of lube.  I don't know what the comparison of diesel would be to petrol. Maybe diesel has a similar lubricity to petrol at 80:1 to start off with so running at 200:1 gives you an effective ratio of 140:1 or something.
I do know if I work in petrol terms I'm safe and as most of the time I run engines on pure oil, I can never put it too much.

I make real sure there is Plenty in there!   :laugh:


Hugh Conway

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #234 on: June 08, 2018, 06:15:28 PM »
Re additives to increase lubricity in diesel fuels.
Here is a study and results.

jatonkam35s.com/DeuceTechnicalManuals/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf

 A lot of stuff out there that claims it does, does not.

cheers
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

BruceM

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #235 on: June 08, 2018, 06:44:32 PM »
Great link Hugh, thanks!
Pity they didn't test straight vegetable oils as additives but adding 2% soy biodiesel was the hands down winner.




dieselspanner

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #236 on: June 08, 2018, 08:53:52 PM »
Nice one, Hugh, thanks for that.

And it was done 11 years back!

Cheers Stef

Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #237 on: October 03, 2018, 01:38:18 PM »
It's been a while since I had a chance to do some more work on the engine. I blame the winter for that. I just do what I HAVE TO do and hibernate the rest of the time. The weather has warmed up nicely now and we expect probably the last cold front to pass us in the next two days. It never snows here - we just get the cold!

The only thing I totally skipped during the restoration was the rocker assembly. I just cleaned it up and put it back when I assembled the engine to get it running. The wear in the bushes was quite bad and there was a distinct clicking sound coming from the valve gear.
 

As I did with the Camshaft, I turned the worn Rocker shaft ends down to get them round again. The centre portion where it locates in the block is still standard.


There were steel bushes in the rockers... I'm pretty sure that was supposed to be brass!
I opted to make the replacement bushes from VESCONITE. Pretty amazing stuff. This is used everywhere to replace brass bushes and brass wear plates in machinery. Easy to machine, extremely durable and dead cheap compared to brass.

I had these two pieces in my off-cut bin waiting to do something great


New bush machined and in the rocker ready to do some work


There is now zero slop in the rocker assembly and it most definately runs quiter. It took me all of 2 hours to get done and I have no idea why I haven't done this sooner!

A reminder of what the panel looked like when I last worked on it:


I gathered my last energy, stripped out all the guts, cut two more windows in the door and painted it the prettiest colour I could think off.  ;)



Next I got myself a little to-me-from-me for my b-day and finished off the panel with a brand new frequency- and hour meter. It cost an arm and leg but well worth it. Appart from added functionality it finishes the panel off nicely.


The new face:


A little video to show what it looks like now:
It runs a whole lot better with the new gadgets installed  :D
https://youtu.be/C5JExqserFk


1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

glort

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #238 on: October 03, 2018, 02:09:32 PM »

Wow!

Definitely one of the most beautifully finished, best detailed and well equipped setups I have seen. And runs like a swiss watch as well.

BIG credit to you mate.

Now that one is finished and you have nothing else to do, Can I send you my roid and a Cheque to give it the same once over??
I'd be proud as punch to have something like that in my shed..... or lounge room more likely!

ajaffa1

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #239 on: October 03, 2018, 02:17:37 PM »
+1 Glort, what a beautiful restoration, a credit to you and your skills. Hope mine turns out as nice.

I managed to source Oilite bushes for my rockers, right internal/external dimensions but 1/8" too long, not a difficult fix.

Bob